Forum Topic

Turnham Green Tube

Does anyone know what exactly happened this morning to shut down Turnham Green tube and bring multiple ambulances, fire trucks, and police cars to the station? `I asked a police officer and he said there was someone "under the train" - I normally assume jumper but this was a big production.

Annie Fitzsimmons ● 46d46 Comments

Michael, nobody is objecting to you being challenging. That is in the nature of reasonable public discourse. Everyone else on this thread, even those of us who don't have a great understanding of the detailed workings of London Underground, are trying to see if there is way that the shockingly high number of fatalities at Turnham Green can be reduced. You seem to be participating to aggressively assert what you believe to be your intellectual superiority to the rest of us.You seem to have misunderstood what regular users of Turnham Green are telling you. There is a pretty clear distinction between trains going through at full speed and those that amble through and appear almost as if they are going to stop. As I've said previously, I can't confirm if there is a pattern of more trains going through at minimum speed at rush hour and this morning the only Piccadilly line train that passed while I was waiting was moving quickly. However, what other posters have said does appear to make sense.If most incidents occur at off peak times (which a quick internet search suggests they might) and trains are more likely to go at full speed at those times even though there is less pressure on the network to keep to timetable, the scope does seem to be there to make changes that could reduce the death toll.

Mark Evans ● 24d

Sorry, Michael.In the past you clung to Rachel Aldred's "research" and "facts."Enough said.

David Lesniak ● 26d

I make no apologies for challenging hearsay, anecdotes and opinions presented as facts.  Anecdotes about what people think the speed of tube trains are at various times of the day are a classic example.  People are rubbish at estimating speeds at the best of times let alone claiming to have comparisons between different times of the day.  What do they do? Stand on the platform watching multiple trains go by and try and assess if there was a 5, 10, 15mph difference from multiple trains in the morning?  Then note all this information down?  But obviously ignore all the information about train running times which is available as reading that is far too much like hard work.People who are regular transport users may think they know what it takes to run a railway but they are no different from a regular flyer who thinks that means they can fly a plane.

Michael Robinson ● 27d

A friend who worked at the Acton depot said that the Piccadilly line timetable should be in the fiction section. He said that the reason that fast running was so important between Acton Town and Hammersmith was so important that trains could be delivered into the central section quickly when gaps in the service were appearing. The timetable might be adhered to for the first hour or so of operation during the day but after that it becomes very flexible as it should. A rigid adherence to it could grind the service to a halt.Michael, I don't think there is any reason for you to be so rude to people who are telling you what they observe although I suspect now that I have contradicted you I will also be on the wrong end of your disdain. People who are regular transport users do have knowledge and experience which is valuable. I can't confirm Anita and Jeremy's conclusion that fast running of the Piccadilly line through Turnham Green takes place more often at quieter times but it is logical that this is what would happen. I definitely agree with the view that fast running of the service at off-peak times should be considered from a safety perspective and not just a timetable one.

Mark Evans ● 27d

I do find it a bit strange when some people believe things based upon no factual evidence, trust anecdotes from others who have zero knowledge and experience and make no effort to do any research themselves. I suppose it is the reason why some people get conned and scammed.Doing research obviously requires doing work which is why many don't bother  but if you want to know the times between Hammersmith and Acton Town drivers are required to following during normal operation then it is all in the 156 pages of the Piccadilly line working timetable.https://content.tfl.gov.uk/ttn-125-25-piccadilly-29-sep-2025.pdf

Michael Robinson ● 27d

This is going back sometime but I remembered someone who lived on Thornton Avenue telling me that the local residents' group had persuaded London Underground to slow the Piccadilly line trains going through Turnham Green at night. This was to allow them to pass without sounding a warning signal which was waking people up. Don't know if this still applies but if the trains can be slowed to save people's sleep they could be slowed to save lives.At the risk of being on the wrong end of a barbed comment from Michael Robinson, my own experience of years of travelling on this line is the same as Jeremy's i.e. that Piccadilly line trains are more likely to go through Turnham Green at full speed at less busy times. The explanation he provides about why this might happen is the most convincing I've heard up to now.

Anita Blake ● 27d

A person dies, a soul lost. And do we get compassion? No, just childish insults and wellington boot waving. Shameful

Edna Ramsbottom ● 28d

Admire the strained patience of both of you,  do they choose the station for the fast trains, it could be a sudden uncontrolled decision to take their life,we will never know, but slower trains may not be the answer.

Janice Evans ● 28d

Jeremy, I am happy to give you more of my sneering contempt. Few posters on this message board deserve it more than you and you make it so very easy, as demonstrated by the fact-free wittering in your latest post. There is no need to use AI for the calculations, it is GCSE physics level, but I assume this level of analysis is beyond you.There is also no need for you to have any "impressions" and "interpretations" as the running of underground services uses something called the Working Timetable, which is a very detailed document covering everything from the time when individual trains are taken out and returned to the different depots and sidings to the ongoing running times of trains throughout the day.  Yes, things happen which mean trains can't keep to the timetable but normal operation of the network is all defined to the minute.You still haven't been able to explain why you think that trains could be slowed down but still maintain this existing timetable.  I could suggest an adult education course in physics but somehow I think you prefer living in ignorance so you can produce opinions undisturbed by facts.

Michael Robinson ● 28d

Michael, while I have often been on the wrong end of your sneering contempt, I'm happy to tolerate it because, although you are regularly mistaken, you are sometimes interesting. You should be aware that others now refuse to engage with you due to your habitual unpleasantness and conviction that your opinion is fact.As so often your lofty opinion of your own undestanding is misplaced. Using AI to work out average speeds on this stretch of the line does not give any insight into the issue.I am not an expert on these matters but did have an exchange with a TfL employee on a transport forum a few years ago when I asked why wasn't there space in the timetable to increase Piccadilly line services at Turnham Green when so many trains seemed to move through the station at low speed.I wasn't able to retrieve the thread so I may have slightly mangled the reply but I think this is the gist of it - Mike Smith may be able to confirm. The fast stretch between Acton Town and Hammersmith serves two purposes - westbound it ensures that trains in the central section are not backed up by trains in front of them and eastbound it ensures that there are trains on hand to ensure the regularity of the service. Eastbound passengers will be familiar with the regular wait outside Hammersmith station.For eastbound services, there need to be at least two trains in the local signal blocks available to move into Hammersmith when that station is clear. Fast-running through Turnham Green helps ensure that happens. However, generally as the day progresses and a peak service is operating with trains progressing more slowly, there is less need to use maximum speed through Turnham Green which is why I and other station users will often be tantalised by a slow moving Piccadilly line train which deceive ourselves might stop.My interpretation of this, is that trains are less likely to speed through the station during peak hours. Given that fatalities typically seem to occur offpeak or at weekends, it strikes me that operating procedures that discourage controllers from using the full speed capacity at Turnham Green unless absolutely necessary might be effective.Westbound it is slightly less clear cut (and my impression is that fewer trains move through Turnham Green slowly this direction). The Hammersmith to Acton Town stretch is a pinch point before the line splits and there is no operational reason to slow trains. Nevertheless, during off peak and weekend operation there should be limited service impact on timetable operation if speed limitation through Turnham Green was the default.This may have already been considered and ruled out by TfL and it is perfectly understandable that they wouldn't to publish any reports on what they are doing. They can only be judged on results and, while Turnham Green's grisly record continues, they are failing.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 28d

Research has shown that reducing access to methods of suicide makes a big difference,So when buying paracetamol was restricted  people just thought you could buy a few packs from 10 shops and carry on as before. But just breaking that single moment when you make a decision to go to the next shop has made a big difference.So yes there will always be the option to find another station to attempt to take your life.Just a reminder that you may never know until it happens that a friend or family member of yours has made that choice.

Tessa Russell ● 29d

I'm astonished the consensus seems to suggest LU hasn't spent serious time, effort and money trying to alleviate the issue and that some Heath Robinson affair, dreamt up by the good people of Chiswick, will bring some miracle idea to the table.Retrofitting PEDs to 156-year-old curved platforms will not only be cost-prohibitive (and close down the station for months and months), it'll simply send people elsewhere (possibly to the adjacent platform where a slowing train will do the job nicely).Fitting safety doors to brand-new, below-ground stations is very different to adding them to open air relics. 

Mike Smith ● 29d

Maybe a safety railing along the unused high speed platform edges with temporary openings by the train doors for use when Piccadilly Line trains stop in the off-peak. This would be similar to the protective glass screens on parts of the Jubilee and Elizabeth lines.

Peter Evans ● 29d

"A speed limit implemented in a way that would not impact the timetable"Piccadilly line working timetables give a distance of 4.41km between Hammersmith and Acton down and timetabled non-stop running times of 6 minutes eastbound and 6.25 minutes westbound.That means an average speed of 44.1 kmph eastbound and 42.3 kmph westbound.By definition, the trains need to have these average speeds not to impact the timetable.  If the average speed is slower, the time is longer and the entire timetable would need to be revised with new timings.How are you suggesting this happens?  Would the trains accelerate to faster than their current speed between Hammersmith and Turnham Greem, then decelerate to slower than their current speed at Turnham Green then accelerate again to faster than their current speed between Turnham Green and Acton Town?What would you consider a "safe" speed for trains to pass through Turnham Green?Let's say it is about double walking pace of 10kmph for 500m going through Turnham Green, then some back of the envelope calculations show the train would need to achieve maximum speeds of over 150kmph before and after Turnham Green in order to maintain the same average speed and running time to maintain the current timetable."I'm struggling to understand why this isn't at least worth investigation."I think your struggle to understand this says more about your analytical thinking ability than London Underground management.Feel free to do your own calculations.

Michael Robinson ● 29d

Most  who have looked at this closely now accept that there will be no stop at Turnham Green until the signal upgrade which, under current circumstances, isn't likely to happen in the first half of this century.Nobody disputes fatalities can and do happen at other stations and it is likely that measures to reduce them at Turnham Green will only serve to displace rather than prevent tragedy.However, the question that remains unanswered is why should we tolerate such a high level of incidents at Turnham Green (which possibly has the worst record on the network). A speed limit implemented in a way that would not impact the timetable would reduce the 'attraction' of the station for these desperate people. I'm struggling to understand why this isn't at least worth investigation.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 29d

The stopping of Picc line trains at TG would only be for our benefit and convenience, it wouldn't do much for the suicide rate. There was another suicide at Stamford last week - do we slow down trains there too, and at every other station where there's an accessible (of sorts) track? FWIW, the (many) deaths at Mile End are down to people jumping in front of slowing trains. They're blunt and heavy objects, fast or slow. You're looking in the wrong place for your answer.

Mike Smith ● 30d

That's more than I thought, we don't hear about most I suppose.

Janice Evans ● 30d

There are also loads of stations on South Western Railway where through fast trains pass next to the platform.  Across the rail network "passenger struck" incidents show a sad but tragic count of 250-300 for every year since 2013.

N V Brooks ● 30d

There are detailed line + platform maps here.https://cartometro.com/cartes/metro-tram-london/Ravenscourt Park has non-stopping platforms for Piccadilly line.  Stamford Brook westbound platform is non-stopping for Piccadilly line.The east of the District line has some stations with platforms beside rail services out of Fenchurch St that don't stop.Also Metropolitan line 'fast' and 'semi-fast' services don't stop at all stations plus many national rail services only stop sometimes at some stations.  For example, Elizabeth line at Acton Mainline.

Michael Robinson ● 30d

The best idea for Turnham Green would be for all Piccadilly line trains to stop there. However it seems to be TfL policy to kick that idea into the long grass while muttering about one day in the distant future when they might upgrade the signalling. Are there many other stations on the Underground where platforms are open to lines where the trains rarely stop ?

Richard Greenhough ● 30d

Another death at Hammersmith this weekend does provide a grisly illustration for Richard's point that a decelerating train can be just as deadly. However, the point remains that the number of these incidents at TG is extraordinarily high and, whatever steps London Underground have taken so far, appear not to have worked.

Mark Evans ● 30d

If you are on the rails and the wheels go over you, you are most likely to be dead whatever speed the train was doing.

Richard Greenhough ● 34d

"Is there any reason to think that jumping in front of a slower train would be any less fatal than doing so in front of a faster one ?"Physics

Francis Rowe ● 34d

Is there any reason to think that jumping in front of a slower train would be any less fatal than doing so in front of a faster one ? Surely the issue at Turnham Green is that there are platforms giving direct access to lines where passing trains do not stop.

Richard Greenhough ● 34d

No Mike. What I, and others, are suggesting is that Piccadilly line trains only go at full speed through Turnham Green station when it is absolutely necessary to maintain the timetable.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 34d

Mile End is still a 'problem' station. That aside, there was a suicide at Green Park on the Victoria line yesterday afternoon during the peak (16:50). Do you suggest all of the lines are slowed down across the network?

Mike Smith ● 36d

I remember reading some years back that Mile End had a particular problem because there was a large mental health facility near the station. It doesn't seem to have had as many incidents in recent years.I'm not sure I can accept the argument that there is no point in doing anything because it would just shift the problem elsewhere. Accepting that TfL is where we corrall this issue is, at the very least, cruel to the staff who are based there.I cannot believe that there would have been a significant impact on the timetable if on a mid-Sunday morning the speed of trains are limited. You could leave it to the discretion of the controller to lift this limit should he or she believe services are being affected. The point would be that it would be not predictable whether a train would be passing through at speed which would make Turnham Green a less viable option. Of course, the truly determined will look elsewhere but then measures could be considered to reduce the risk at other stations.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 36d

This is so terribly sad. RIP to the deceased and condolences to any family or friends 🙏 💐

Georgina Flint ● 43d

Jeremy - I'm afraid 11 (which isn't to be sniffed at in itself) is way short of the actual number.TfL has a department that deals with suicides and they've commissioned (and continue to) significant research into the subject. It also works with mental health organisations and trains staff to look out for those who might be planning to take their lives (their number of 'saves' is remarkably high).People choose Turnham Green because it's 'recommended' on several dark web and suicide sites. Mile End is another 'favourite'. Few of those who die (or are maimed) there are local to the areas.Slowing down the line in one section will do little more than delay the timetable and push the problem elsewhere. The real answer is investing in those who have mental health issues. Currently, you can wait months for an NHS psychiatrist appointment.

Mike Smith ● 43d

While it is difficult to get exact numbers, an AI enabled search suggests that conservatively around eleven people have died at this station over the last three decades.While there is a cold logic to the argument that trying to do something about this would just cause these fatalities to happen somewhere else, this is probably worth verifying. People may have chosen Turnham Green due to familiarity with the station and the idea could have implanted itself by seeing the trains speed through.Until we know for sure, the idea of a speed restriction is a good one and I can't see any downside if, as suggested, the controller has the authority to suspend if there is congestion on the line.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 43d

Surely it is common sense to send all available units to an incident like this on a quiet Sunday morning just in case they are needed. The alternative is to leave some at the station. If another emergency call comes in they are up and ready to go.

Francis Rowe ● 44d

Antonio, you are correct; something is fundamentally very wrong here, but it's your lack of understanding about the mental health crisis.

Mike Smith ● 44d

>All this for a one person incident?One person? A hard stop on a tube train could injure hundreds of people.Also, a 999 call for an emergency on a tube line? Just send a couple of police? Really?

Paul James ● 44d

We were around the area and we saw something like 3 fire trucks, 5 ambulances, 10 if not more police cars, plus the helicopter. I am obviously sad for the person that died, but really? All this for a one person incident? Something is fundamentally very wrong here.

Antonio Nardi ● 44d

Why does it need to be platform doors or a full stop rather than a speed limit? 15mph through the station would put an end to this and not have too big an impact on the timetable. If it was found it was creating problems, controllers could selectively waive the speed limit but this isn't something you would ever need to do on a Sunday morning.

Mark Evans ● 44d

You are 100% correct. But you'd simply move the problem up/down the line (or to a high building or bridge). Infrastructure isn't the problem here.

Mike Smith ● 45d

I almost hate to say it, especially given the sad circumstances, but if the Piccadilly Line were to stop at Turnham Green full time, there would be less of a risk of this happening. Yes, I know it's more a Turnham Dream than possible reality, and why this can't happen, before I spark another major debate, but just saying...

Richard Evans ● 45d

I don't think TfL pretends there isn't an issue at Turnham Green (or other fast running/non-stopping stations). There are several stations dotted around the network that are touted on the dark web as 'good places to kill yourself'. The only way to stop this at TG would be (ridiculously expensive) platform doors. But all this will do is move the problem elsewhere on the network.

Mike Smith ● 45d

Sadly what Mike told us has now been officially confirmed - see front page.While I can see why there might be some caution being exercised about reporting on this matter - I totted up five passenger incidents (mainly fatalities) at Turnham Green over the last couple of years. It isn't really credible to pretend the station doesn't have a particular problem.

Mark Evans ● 45d

No positive news. Life pronounced extinct on scene.

Mike Smith ● 45d

Very sad - I pray for any bit of positive news.

Ron Mushiso ● 46d

That makes more sense - it was totally crazy how many were in attendance. And the people on the Piccadilly line also stopped before TG were actually in the train for at least an hour, not allowed to get off.

Annie Fitzsimmons ● 46d

Given the numbers in attendance, I can only presume that the first call or calls may have reported the person as being pushed onto the track rather than self-inflicted, which makes it more of a murder scene at the first point of call, but later identified as a possible suicide and no other person involved.

Julian Pavey ● 46d

Local stations have a relatively high rate of one unders because of the fast tracks. I  don't know why so many resources were required in this instance though. I presume there is a requirement at some level that triggers a large response.

Charlotte Kasner ● 46d

Suicide. Either attempted or 'successful'. The response depends on a number of factors and, one assumes, the helicopter meant the injured wasn't necessary dead or alive. Of course, Sundays - especially during the weekend peak of 11:00 - this side of Christmas are already busy, so there's lots of people to get off trains (between stations and at Turnham Green itself). I did wonder when I heard the helicopter and saw the TfL website what made the person choose today. It's very sad. One way or another, a massive impact on lots of lives following that decision.

Mike Smith ● 46d

I was nearly mown down head-on while cycling W along Chiswick High Road by two police cars doing about 50mph down the wrong (E-going) side of the road!

John Armstrong ● 46d