Forum Topic

Drug dealers moving into Chiswick,

We know who you are and what cars you drive, rest assure any hint of anti-social behaviour or rubbish tipping your reported to the council and police, funny enough I have a webcam showing all of your movements that can serve as evidence.

John Bird ● 11d39 Comments

'The goal of decriminalization was to treat drug use as a public health issue rather than a criminal one.'Precisely, it is a public health issue, so why leave it to criminals to do as they like and make a fortune? Decriminalisation means regulation, and not leaving the 'market' for drugs open to people who couldn't careless what they sell or to whom they sell it.

Vanessa Smith ● 8h

In 2001, Portugal decriminalized all drugs, including cannabis.This means that possession and consumption of small amounts are not considered criminal offenses, but rather administrative violations.Individuals caught with small amounts of cannabis may be referred to a commission that can impose fines or mandatory treatment.The goal of decriminalization was to treat drug use as a public health issue rather than a criminal one.

Sam Hearn ● 1d

They mix other things with the drugs and half the time they don't know what they have taken.

Janice Evans ● 1d

Take a trip on a Saturday to Piccadilly Gardens in Manchester and the back roads and doorways. Then tell people why drugs or certain drugs should be legalised.

Julian Pavey ● 1d

Steve, my nephew died from drug overdose in 2023, we tried to help him for years, I don't know the answer.

Janice Evans ● 1d

“ my experience of this is similar to Jayne's with cannabis related psychosis alarmingly high among my children's contemporaries.”Precisely. And that is sufficient evidence on why drugs should not be legalised. It would be totally irresponsible. Speak to families who have experienced the devastating effects of drugs when their children have lapsed into a catatonic state or committed suicide.

Steve Taylor ● 1d

Portugal decriminalised all drugs and they seem to think it has been a success.

Janice Evans ● 2d

It is probably wrong to overstate the difference in drug policy between Portugal and the UK. Although possession remains a criminal offence in the UK, most people caught shoplifting on Chiswick High Road will not face a drug charge even if they are driven to crime by addiction. The police may use possession charges to detain criminals suspected of more serious crimes or to pressure people into providing details about suppliers but there aren't many prosecutions in straightforward cases of possession for personal use.The big difference in Portugal is that they approached the issue from a public health point of view. If you are found with drugs for personal use you were still put in the system but you appeared before Dissuasion Committees which arranged programmes to stop your drug use. This was hugely successful initially but it appears more recently, as funding has been cut for rehabilitation, drug harm has been rising back to previous levels. The lesson here is something that we all probably know, drug addiction is a public health problem and should be treated as such.As for decriminalisation of supply as well as possession which some suggest for less addictive drugs like cannabis, my experience of this is similar to Jayne's with cannabis related psychosis alarmingly high among my children's contemporaries. I don't think the available research has caught up with the impact of stronger strains which are available (and wouldn't disappear with decriminalisation).The US states which have decriminalised cannabis give us a glimpse into what the likely impact might be. Hospital admissions in which cannabis was a factor have risen significantly. In a country without socialised medicine this is less of a problem but this would be an extra and unwelcome burden on the NHS.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 2d

Drug use is decriminalised (I think) in the Netherlands and Portugal.In Portugal, from Wikipedia:- Drug use among adolescents (13–15 years) and "problematic" users declined.[34]- Drug-related criminal justice workloads decreased.[34]Decreased street value of most illicit drugs, some significantly.[citation needed]- It is estimated that the social cost of drug use decreased by 12% on average in the 5-year period following the establishment of NSAFD in 1999, and an 18% on average reduction since 2010. The social cost of drug use is defined by the sum of public expenditure on drugs, the private costs incurred by individual drug users, and costs taken on by society, including loss of income and loss of productivity.To be fair, the data is not conclusive, but I would be delighted if death rates from drugs were like Portugal (25th  most common of 29 countries in Europe)  or even Netherlands (14th). Some people might be proud of the UK winning the silver medal for dead drug users but I would prefer it if perhaps 1/8 as many people died here than in Portugalhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal#/media/File:Drug_overdose_death_rates_for_European_countries.png

Guy Lambert ● 3d

So on that basis wouldn't it make sense to be able to control, regulate and tax? Instead of leaving the whole thing to a 'wild west' approach?

Vanessa Smith ● 3d

Vanessa sadly you are wrong and Steve is correct. We have 2 sets of pals and one each of their kids smoked cannabis in their teens and sadly they have both been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and both on medicated drugs for the rest of their lives. It is super sad both kids are bright but cannabis created a huge problem for them until they were diagnosed. Not to mention the worry they caused to their parents. Absolutely no to legalising drugs.

Jayne Thorburn ● 3d

I remember going to a school parents evening to learn about the drugs that were on the street so as to know something more  about the risks our children (and therefore ourselves) were facing.  It would be good if more parents made the effort to go to these talks - that is of course if the Police still have anyone to give them. It is always disappointing to hear that it is sometimes parents who introduce their children and therefore their friends to illegal drugs. They can bring so much misery to whole families as the addiction which optimists don't believe will ever happen to them and the threats and intimidation which also often accompany the use of illegal drugs can be literally and metaphorically crippling.

Philippa Bond ● 3d

Well, both Steve and Sam are entitled to their opinions, but as none of this has been tried and all their dire forecasts are based on supposition, we may never know.

Vanessa Smith ● 4d

Decriminalising drugs will result in more teenage suicides and more family poverty and misery.

Steve Taylor ● 4d

Vanessa - decriminalisng recreational drugs will not reduce the cost to our health service and our police service our educational services and every other publicly funded service that is knocked sideways by the effects of widespread drug abuse. Drugs will not be free if they are made legal, they will simply become more widely available. Users will simply commit more crimes to fund the purchase of more drugs. I do not have any bright ideas that have not already been tried but let us please be honest about what decriminalisng drugs would mean.

Sam Hearn ● 4d

"I happened to watch a '24 hours in police custody' this week was all about kids 14 to 16 being inveigled into working for 'proper' drug dealers and having their lives ruined mau=inly being unable to stop because of threats to them and their families.I wasn't around in Chicago in 1930 - even I am not that old -  but the reason prohibition was relaxed was not about the harms of alcohol (which are arguably far worse than most proscribed narcotics) but about the crime."Yes, I saw that too - parents going mad at very young kids disappearing for ages and not having a clue where they were or what they were getting up to. It was so sad, they had been entrapped into something they couldn't get out of. You are absolutely right that prohibition wasn't about the booze, it fuelled the gangster era in the U.S. by supplying people with what they wanted. And yes alcohol and for that matter gambling, both of which are socially acceptable and legal can be just as damaging to families and individuals. But they are regulated up to a point, although some might argue that regulation doesn't go far enough especially with the amount of advertising for online gambling sites.

Vanessa Smith ● 4d

'Most of the time I agree with you Vanessa. However, I found your latest post irresponsible and heartless. There is no panacea for dealing with this scourge of our Society - saying it is not a problem is not an answer.'I don't recall saying 'it is not a problem' - you may consider my post 'irresponsible and heartless', but have you any bright ideas given that what we are doing now isn't working and hasn't for years and years at God alone knows what cost, both in terms of money and lives let alone the cost to our health services? We need to open our eyes and take a hefty dose of realism, there is no magic bullet we can but try -  but with people like you even trying seems to be off the agenda.

Vanessa Smith ● 4d

That wouldn''get rid' of them though.

Keith Iddon ● 4d

To get rid of the proper drug dealers we would have to legalise every drug,otherwise it just continues.

Janice Evans ● 4d

Forgiven, Keith.I do not have a terribly committed view on this, but I see a lot of problems that result from the current regime. A huge amount of local police time is directed at controlling the drug trade and the evils that stem from it, EG cuckooing, recruiting children as runners, turf wars etc. I happened to watch a '24 hours in police custody' this week was all about kids 14 to 16 being inveigled into working for 'proper' drug dealers and having their lives ruined mau=inly being unable to stop because of threats to them and their families. I wasn't around in Chicago in 1930 - even I am not that old -  but the reason prohibition was relaxed was not about the harms of alcohol (which are arguably far worse than most proscribed narcotics) but about the crime.

Guy Lambert ● 5d

Apologies for the spelling and the syntax of my last post.I had one eye on the cricket on TV.

Keith Iddon ● 5d

Most of the time I agree with you Vanessa. However, I found your latest post irresponsible and heartless. There is no panacea for dealing with this scourge of our Society - saying it is not a problem is not an answer.

Sam Hearn ● 5d

Denial is not just a big river in Africa.You can't ignore that habitual use of modern day strength cannabis use amongst youngster can be  detremantal to their intellectual,social and psychological development.I agree about excessive use of mobiles and social media,but that's not what the thread is about.

Keith Iddon ● 5d

Oh dear! The 'pearl clutchers' are at it again!What is most prevalent in the news is not the effects of Cannabis on young people, but the effects of mobile 'phones and social media use. This is proving to be another area where anything being done is too little, too late. what you can never be successful at is trying to stop people getting what it is they want. All this weeping and wailing by the usual suspects - gives no remedies. What we do know for sure, is that inordinate amounts of money have been thrown at this problem with bugger all to show for it, except a lot of TV programmes showing our hard pressed police forces constantly waging a war on an issue that they can never win.  We need a realistic, cold & hard, fact based and open public debate otherwise we will go on throwing good money after bad for years to come and solve nothing.

Vanessa Smith ● 5d

“ Cannabis use increases risk of psychosis independently from genetic predisposition”100% correct. Legalising cannabis would be the most irresponsible thing a government could do. How could parents even try to guide their teenagers if buying and using cannabis and other drugs was legal. This country has enough problems with alcoholism, smoking and vaping so why would any responsible government consider legalising drugs. It’s madness. It causes family breakdown and misery. Any Councillor advocating for drug legalisation is not fit for office. God forbid any MP is so insane.

Steve Taylor ● 5d

Whilst attracted by Joanna and Guy's libertarian arguments I remain very concerned about the impact of cannabis use on mental health.This link to a Kings College London 2024 article sums up the current researchCannabis use increases risk of psychosis independently from genetic predispositionhttps://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/cannabis-use-increases-risk-of-psychosis-independently-from-genetic-predispositionA family friend (a couple of years younger than me) who I knew well was a heavy and regular and heavy user of cannabis. He was institutionalised with schizophrenia and treated with medicinal drugs so that he could return to a normal life. I met up with him when he was living in a halfway house. He confided in me that he was not taking his medication because they dulled his senses and were part of a plot by the Free Masons. He committed suicide a couple of weeks later.His mother was a good friend. Amongst the photos that she had on her mantelpiece of her two other children and grand children there was always pride of place for her "lost" son.

Sam Hearn ● 5d

Also drinking and drug taking can be due to lack of confidence, which could be dealt with at an early age.

Janice Evans ● 5d

Drugs dull pain, they don't know they have toothache until it's too late andthey end up with no teeth, more could be done in the media first to explain the consequences of taking drugs.

Janice Evans ● 5d

I am not sure any responsible parent would be happy for their teenager to start smoking weed because it was legal.Possession and use by schoolchildren legal? I don't think so.We have a big enough problem with that now.

Keith Iddon ● 5d

“ Legalizing possession, but not production, does not eliminate the underground market, so violence and quality control issues remain. Indeed, to the extent decriminalization increases demand, it expands the black market and thus causes more violence”

Steve Taylor ● 5d

Correct, Guy. I have often said that drugs should be legalised and regulated. Transform (which was a client of mine about 25 years ago) is a very useful source of information and research, providing evidence-based reasoning for legalisation and regulation. Anyone's Child: Families for Safer Drug Control is a powerfully persuasive campaigning group within Transform. It asks a straightforward question: If your child had a problem with drugs, what do you think would help them most? A doctor's appointment - or a criminal record? https://transformdrugs.orghttps://anyoneschild.org

Joanna Biddolph ● 5d

You are correct,it is npt a panacea.You might find that when the state sanctions cannabis outlets so that supply can be regulted and taxed,that those nasty drug dealers won't start behaving themselves or go away,but will sell much cheaper and much more dangerous product to the poor and desperate.There has also been a lot of research on the subject of how excessive use of cannabis by teenagers inhibits brain devekopment.I am broadly in favour of decriminalisation for over 25's which is roughly when the prefrontal cortex is fully developed and by which time one might have a decent job,a career and family responsibilities and it might be used recreationally and not habitually.

Keith Iddon ● 6d

It would be pointless to ask you for evidence. Evidence from Portugal is positive https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straightMore mixed in British Columbiahttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68621012And in Oregonhttps://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/02/oregon-overturn-drug-decriminalize-lawThese are mainly (not Portugal) recent and experimental. Clearly it is not a panacea but the vast amount of trouble involving the police in my ward, or upsets residents, is related to the drug business, just as I hear was the case in the USA in the prohibition era.

Guy Lambert ● 6d

And there is very clear evidence that where drugs are decriminalised there are higher rates of overdose deaths. This country in particular already has an above average rate of child abuse and domestic violence due to alcohol abuse. Decriminalising drugs will only compound the problem. It would be quite ridiculous to decriminalise drugs.

Steve Taylor ● 6d

I agree with Vanessa. Also, I believe Jo Biddolph, with whom I rarely agree, said something similar at a meeting I attended a couple of years ago.There has been a lot of decriminalising in other countries, including the USA though I think that varies by state.

Guy Lambert ● 6d

When will we have a grown-up discussion regarding drugs in this country. For years successive governments have thrown large amounts of money at this, and where have we got to? Surely now is the time - to at least consider de-criminalising, regulating and taxing? Prohibition of alcohol never worked and this seems to be the same mistake over and over, how much police time is wasted on raids and court cases not to mention Border Force and Customs, on what is a big public health issue apart from anything else. All that seems to have happened is that authority has left the door wide open for criminals to move in and control the whole drugs trade, which involves people trafficking, modern slavery, prostitution and more misery. Government needs to take back the initiative, stop clutching their Pearls like a load of maiden aunts and face the fact that in spite of the money that has been spent things have just got worse, if that doesn't tell them this approach is not working nothing will.

Vanessa Smith ● 6d

I was chatting to a local shop owner recently about the trend of locked doors particular at mobile phone shops on the High Road. She said that there was an element of companies responding to negative national press coverage rather than what was happening on the ground. According to her much of the crime in the centre of town could be traced back to two properties which were most of the drug dealing originated from. The police have closed them down and crime, particularly shop lifting, dropped significantly. I hope your post doesn't mean that some new drug dealers are moving in to take advantage of a gap in the market although that I suppose would be almost inevitable.

Francis Rowe ● 7d

"rubbish tipping"?

Julian Pavey ● 10d

What do you mean by 'moving into'? They've been there for years.

Keith Iddon ● 11d