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Steve,If it was the only question why, oh why did you come up with all that other stuff that I proved you were wrong about?You say one thing and then contradict yourself later on in the same thread.It feels like talking to someone who just doesn't get it but I'll repeat myself again:You said: "The Home Office has no idea of exactly how many ‘students’ remain here after their visa has expired and how many just slope off into the black economy." – False, you’ve admitted as much yourself by saying that the ONS have these statistics. You then yourself go on to mention a figure for the number who haven’t left (incorrect as it happens). So are you suggesting you have these figures to hand but the home office hasn’t?You then said:"And you have no evidence that those students didn’t stay and the fact remains that with the  exception of Germany, the UK has the highest net migration in Europe. France, Spain and Italy have succeeded in reducing their immigration substantially since 2023. The UK has failed miserably. Hence the rise of Farage."Again, I’ve demonstrated that the majority of students didn’t stay, so the first bit (which is what I was disputing) that you said again was demonstrably false.I didn’t bring up Farage, Reform, France, Spain, Italy or this Labour Government. I'm not commenting about any of that.You made assertions earlier on in this thread that are incorrect and I tackled you about them.Earlier on, I even updated some figures you provided with more upto date figures.What I find really odd is as someone who totally opposed Brexit, from what I can tell, you were absolutely happy with the right of free movement given to anyone in the EU, regardless of the reason they choose to come here, yet you are against a controlled student visa scheme where the UK has a degree of control as to who it allows into the country arriving via legal means.

Andrew Jones ● 2d

Ah Dear Steve, Is that what they call deflection? Let me remind you of some of what you wrote and what I wrote earlier in this thread.You: "The Home Office has no idea of exactly how many ‘students’ remain here after their visa has expired and how many just slope off into the black economy."and"Well, what is your evidence that the Home Office know exactly how many 'students' remain here illegally their visa has expired?"You:"That’s right. So only 41% of students left the UK after their student visa expired. 59% remained. Clear evidence that the majority granted student visas have no intention of returning to their home country." Me:"So it isn’t clear evidence of what you assert about the 59% having no intention to return.What proportion of those 59% continued to stay in the country legally on a subsequent study visa or other visa? Undoubtedly some remained, perhaps legally, perhaps illegally but you have provided no evidence that the whole 59% stayed with no intention of returning to the country they came from."You:"And you have no evidence that those students didn’t stay and the fact remains that with the  exception of Germany, the UK has the highest net migration in Europe. France, Spain and Italy have succeeded in reducing their immigration substantially since 2023. The UK has failed miserably. Hence the rise of Farage."Answering some of what you said previously:On your assertion that the Home Office has no idea: The ONS provides the statistics of what happens to people who have come here on study visas so unless the Home Office doesn’t have access to the ONS data, or deliberately chooses to have no idea what you wrote about how many 'students' remain here after their visa has expired is simply incorrect.I’ve linked to the ONS data alreadyOn your assertion: “Clear evidence that the majority granted student visas have no intention of returning to their home country.”and “And you have no evidence that those students didn’t stay … ”Again I provided evidence and asked you “Now, what's your evidence to rebut my evidence Steve?”Whether or not the immigration system has failed is a different question.You said the home office has no idea – you were wrong.You said “clear evidence that the majority granted student visas have no intention of returning to their home country” – You provided no evidence, I provided evidence to disprove you assertion – again, you are wrong.

Andrew Jones ● 2d

Here are some ONS reports from Dec 2024 and May 2025 and links to Spreadsheets of the ONS data:https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/yearendingdecember2024https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/datasets/longterminternationalstudentmigrationprovisionalestimateshttps://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/reasonforinternationalmigrationinternationalstudentsupdate/may2025There are some caveats regarding the data presented in the may 2025 report.If you look at the "Underlying data for Long-term international student migration" spreadsheet you can find percentage values for people emigrating after arriving here on various types of study related visas. Just looking at the Study Visas:In 2019 111,500 people recorded as having arrived on a study visa (from a Non EU country). In subsequent years, the proportion of these who hadn't emigrated was 72% (1 year later), 47% (2 years later) and 26% (3 years later)For 2020, the figures are 99,500 and 75%, 40% and 20%.For 2021, figures are 222,300 and 70%, 33% and 17%.For 2022, figures are 314,100 and 63% (1 year later) and 25% (2 years later)For 2023, of the 298,200 who arrived on a study visa, 65% hadn't emigrated a year later. Now 2019 and 2020 were pre-pandemic and pandemic years, so there's a chance that the data deviated significantly more from gemeral trends, but the figures for 2021, 2022 and 2023 aren't that wildly different.And that's some evidence why I think your assertion "That’s right. So only 41% of students left the UK after their student visa expired. 59% remained. Clear evidence that the majority granted student visas have no intention of returning to their home country.", in particular the bit I highlighted isn't correct.Now, what's your evidence to rebut my evidence Steve?

Andrew Jones ● 3d