Forum Topic

Hounslow Council back residents over Church Street closure

There will be a lot of people living in Chiswick very grateful to Hounslow Council transport officers today. They have clearly done their job well and acted in the best interests of residents.The article on the front page 'Council Questions Need for Church Street Closure' seems to me to understate the fairly devastating critique by the council of this part of the plan. It is quite clear that there was a huge amount of frustration at the failure of TfL to provide further evidence and explanations when they were requested.The tone of the report is not a total surprise as it was heralded at the recent Area Forum but it has to mean the Church Street aspect of the scheme if not the whole plan is dead in the water surely.

Francis Rowe ● 46d122 Comments

There is no dispute that delays were reduced 2022 to 2023 but that was the year of the ULEZ expansion."How is adding a lane from the westbound A4 to the southbound A316 to Chiswick Bridge going to do anything about any delays on the northbound A316 from Chiswick Bridge or southbound on Chiswick Lane?"This question was answered in the consultation documentation supplied by TfL. It was pointed out that both delays and collisions at Hogarth Roundabout were significantly increased by lane switching particularly by HGVs. Anyone regularly using this route will confirm this to be correct.The dedicated lane may reduce this (although there will be the inevitable queue jumpers). However, there should now be three clear lanes to continue west at Hogarth Roundabout which will reduce the long queues back to Hammersmith which, as your data shows, increased from 2019 to 2023. There are notionally three westbound lanes at the moment but 10 minutes observation will show you that these are often effectively reduced to one by lane switching by people heading to the A316.An increase in capacity at Hogarth Roundabout will reduce the need for short phases for northbound on the A316 and southbound on Chiswick Lane reducing the queues at these points.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 16d

No, I’ve been quite clear but you chose to misinterpret.And if it’s not rapidly getting worse as you claim: the delays at Hogarth, and to clear that’s separately both east and west, are lower in 2023 than 2022.What’s more, how is adding a lane from the westbound A4 to the southbound A316 to Chiswick Bridge going to do anything about any delays on the northbound A316 from Chiswick Bridge or southbound on Chiswick Lane? There’s no reason to think TfL share your concerns on that score alone.

Tom Pike ● 17d

The wording you used wasn't particularly ambiguous. If you misspoke that is not a problem but it is difficult for you to deny what you said when it remains available for people to read.The A4 may be running more freely at least eastbound through Chiswick but this is coming at the cost of displacing congestion to local roads. I hope you are right about the scope for rephasing but there have been significant projects to upgrade the junction management at Sutton Court Road in 2012, 2015 and 2021 with the last putting in the latest technology to maximise junction capacity.It seems to me hard to avoid the conclusion that TfL have realised that the potential of better management of light phasing has been exhausted and physical changes are the only way to increase capacity particularly at Hogarth Roundabout.  I'm not advocating for or endorsing the road widening scheme, rather pointing out that it is an understandable response to an issue that is getting worse and for which there are no reasons to believe there will be any mitigations for in the future. They clearly don't share your pollyannaish assessment of the situation which appears to me to be based on very brittle foundations.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 17d

The reasonable explanation that Jeremy is looking for is that the reports he is supposedly getting are from residents suffering from the same dementing confirmation biases as him.

Paul Campbell ● 18d

I made it quite clear it was the average delay on the A4 through Chiswick that was down, not each individual link. You can of course choose to believe something else. And please feel free to have your own discussions on optimising the phasing of the lights. There will be scope for tweaking this, especially if the A4 is running more freely.

Tom Pike ● 18d

Tom, your original claim was "that shows that delays on the stretches of the A4 either side of Hogarth are down from 2019 to 2023." This as your own post acknowledges is not the case. I can understand that you misspoke and meant to say that the average of both directions had shown a fall but the distinction is important.The narrowing of the A316 by Chiswick House is a constant but, if local people are observing increased incidents of traffic tailing past Edensor Road, isn't it reasonable to assume that the phasing is more often unfavourable for vehicles moving north towards Hogarth Roundabout? I picked yesterday at random but there was the same pattern today and it certainly isn't the historic norm that these queues regularly go all the way back to Chiswick Bridge.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 18d

My claim is quite correct, that the daily average total delay for links on both sides of Hogarth is down. That's not an "argument" it is indeed a simple fact. And it's not a "small" section, it's the section that forms the basis of this discussion!Of course the traffic-light phasing affects the delays and there's always going to be some delays which TfL can juggle by changing the phasing.  You can see the eastbound tailbacks on the A4 at SCR and on SCR itself in your traffic snapshot: on that basis the freerunning eastbound A4 at Hogarth with queues northbound on the A316 might suggest a shift in phasing towards the A316. But if you look closely, the delay from Chiswick Bridge is set by the reduction of the A316 from two lanes to one at Chiswick House with traffic then freeing up towards Hogarth - that bottleneck has been around for many decades! Indeed such reasonable considerations are quite different from your unsupported claim that this is all being driven by an inexorable increase in A4 traffic.In any case, TfL will be making such decisions based on rather more data than a single snapshot of traffic - that's how INRIX make money.

Tom Pike ● 19d

Game, set and match to Jeremy.

Steve Taylor ● 19d

So, you acknowledge your earlier claim that delays on both sides of the Hogarth Roundabout are down from 2019 to 2023 is not a 'simple fact' but rather inaccurate. As I understand what you are saying, if you take delays per km on both sides of the roundabout, make an adjustment for the distances you could argue that it is possible that the total delay from the junction with British Grove to Chiswick Roundabout might be down slightly in the context of significantly increased congestion on other sections of the A4. Even setting aside that these appear to be figures for the whole day rather than peak hours so don't necessarily give us the true picture, you are having to make them work very hard to fit your narrative. Let's just assume that this pattern of reduced delays between Hogarth Roundabout and Chiswick Roundabout is followed during peak hours, isn't it worth reflecting why this might be happening? After all, it does seem strange that congestion is increasing everywhere else but this one small section. What explanation do you have for this other than the obvious one i.e. that TfL change the phases on the lights at SCR and Hogarth Roundabout to make traffic run more quickly on this stretch to avoid tailbacks exacerbating congestion in each direction.  You can see this in action right now (map below from 8.15 this morning) — the A4 is running smoothly in the morning rush hour but there are long queues back down to Chiswick Bridge along the A316 and up to Chiswick High Road from Sutton Court Road. So it may be on a 1.6km part of the A4 there has been a slight reduction in delays but this is coming at the cost of heavy congestion elsewhere in Chiswick.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 19d

Those plots are of delay/km, not of the delay itself. The link west of Hogarth is significantly longer, and so the total delay has dropped. DfT and TfL are able to do these calculations.

Tom Pike ● 21d

"TfL won’t be combing INRIX press releases to try to work out where the delays are occurring: they have the full dataset available, as do the DfT. And that shows that delays on the stretches of the A4 either side of Hogarth are down from 2019 to 2023."You will remain confused until you can accept this simple fact."You'll have to forgive me for finding this simple fact hard to accept when the charts you kindly shared above contradict it. They clearly show that delays increased significantly on the stretch between the LBHF boundary and Hogarth Roundabout between 2019 and 2023.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 21d

Jeremy, you appear to have learned absolutely nothing despite gnawing at this for three weeks now. Do you have no sense of shame or self-pride?

Paul Campbell ● 22d

Jeremy, I am puzzled as to why you are repeatedly unable to read what I have written! As I have said several times, the delay I’ve extracted for Chiswick is for all of Chiswick, from the Hammersmith border to Chiswick Roundabout, so includes the approaches to Hogarth in both directions. That the overall delay is down is not symptomatic of any problem!And I did not say that INRIX ignored any delays, simply that they have chosen different sections of the same road at different times for publicity purposes. In this case it’s the A4 daily delay between Chiswick High Road and Piccadilly in 2019, and the westbound peak delay from Warwick Road to Wellesley Road in 2023. I’m not suggesting anything, rather it’s crystal clear they are not looking at delays on a particular stretch of road in a consistent manner!TfL won’t be combing INRIX press releases to try to work out where the delays are occurring: they have the full dataset available, as do the DfT. And that shows that delays on the stretches of the A4 either side of Hogarth are down from 2019 to 2023. You will remain confused until you can accept this simple fact. 

Tom Pike ● 22d

I am scratching my head at this response. Are you suggesting that INRIX have ignored other roads elsewhere which have greater delays in order to exaggerate the changes on the A4? What possible motive would they have for doing that.Why is it not reasonable to assume that they ranked the roads according to a consistent methodology and this showed that the A4 was one of the worst for delays in the country and got considerably worst from 2019 to 2023. Yes, if you narrowly define 'through Chiswick' as Chiswick Roundabout to Hogarth Roundabout' and look at figures for across the day rather than at peaks and for both directions you can see an improvement within this overall deterioration  but this looks like a symptom of the problem rather than evidence it doesn't exist. Traffic can be speeded up on this stretch by changing the light phases at SCR and Hogarth Roundabout so that there has been a marginal improvement on this short stretch within the context of significantly increased delays across the whole route, is a sign of stress on the network not that there are more problems. The offset is the increased delays we are seeing north south on SCR, north on A316 Burlington Lane and southbound on Chiswick Lane.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 22d

The delays I gave are for both directions, not just eastbound. The INRIX delay in the annual report is a number deliberately picked to give the longest delay for publicity purposes. In 2019 they picked the daily delay on the A4 between Chiswick High Road and Piccadilly Circus as  the second longest at 10 mins. In 2023 they picked the westbound peak delay on the A4 from Warwick Road to Wellesley as the second highest at 14 minutes. You can’t conclude much about a portion of the route from these cherry-picked figures - you need to look at the link numbers to draw any valid conclusions. I’ve done just that and delays on the A4 through Chiswick are down, both from 2019 to 2023, and from 2022 to 2023.

Tom Pike ● 23d

"We have no evidence that delays westbound through Chiswick have increased"The westbound carriage way of the A4 through Chiswick did not feature in the top 5 most congested roads during peak hours in the INRIX report of 2019. The fifth most congested road that year had a delay of six minutes. By 2023 the westbound carriage had risen to second in the list with a delay of 14 minutes so delays have more than doubled.The charts on the eastbound traffic speeds you shared earlier were really illuminating but if you are to persist with the claim that there have been no increase in westbound delays 'through Chiswick' it would be really helpful if you could supply the same for westbound traffic speeds.I take the point on 'predict and supply' but the higher level data we have from the two INRIX annual reports suggest that prediction is not necessary here and the Hogarth Roundabout scheme is a response to a developing problem.I also need to correct a point I made previously on fuel duty - it was not as I said increased a decision which is not going to help the situation on the A4.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 23d

"I am very sorry if I misrepresented you in anyway. That wasn't my intention. Some might contest your view that eastbound delays through Chiswick are down as Chiswick doesn't end at Hogarth Roundabout but that's by-the-by"Why apologise, and then misrepresent me again? I haven't said anything about eastbound delays. And I gave the reduced delay for the full length of the A4 through Chiswick, that's from the border with LBHF to Chiswick roundabout. We have no evidence that delays westbound through Chiswick have increased, and if they have the eastbound delays must have reduced even more. What's clear is that there has been an overall increase in delays in Hammersmith up to Warwick Road. It's odd to focus on Hogarth roundabout in that context. "We are at risk of drifting away from the whole point of this discussion which is the question of whether the widening of the A4 could be partly being considered to alleviate current and expected congestion on the A4."Traffic in London has not increased in the last thirty years, despite a significant increase in population. I don't think there's any hurry now to readopt the fifty-year-old policy of predict and supply with regard to its road network, and most certainly not on the basis of the data we have for the A4 through Chiswick.

Tom Pike ● 24d

"the question of whether the widening of the A4 could be partly being considered to alleviate current and expected congestion on the A4."


The only person who appears to have this question is you Jeremy...

Michael Robinson ● 24d

I am very sorry if I misrepresented you in anyway. That wasn't my intention.Some might contest your view that eastbound delays through Chiswick are down as Chiswick doesn't end at Hogarth Roundabout but that's by-the-by.We are at risk of drifting away from the whole point of this discussion which is the question of whether the widening of the A4 could be partly being considered to alleviate current and expected congestion on the A4.Specifically the plans are focused on the westbound carriageway so it would really be more useful to have the westbound data. However, I think the apparent contradiction of traffic speeding up a bit eastbound from Chiswick Roundabout to Hogarth Roundabout and slowing down east of there may be partly explicable by increasing queues westbound.Traffic lights around Hogarth Roundabout and Sutton Court Road are managed dynamically. If westbound queues are forming TfL will shorten the phases at these two junctions to reduce westbound tailbacks but this will also speed up eastbound flows between Chiswick Roundabout and Hogarth Roundabout concentrating the delays further east.The claim that traffic is being reduced 'through Chiswick' ignores the resulting queues that develop on the A316 Burlington Lane, Chiswick Lane and Sutton Court Road as a result.Delays westbound on the A4 out to Chiswick Roundabout have increased significantly from 2019 to 2023 and therefore it must be assumed that the light phasing at these junctions has been consistently less favourable to local traffic crossing the A4. This chimes with what many people have been saying about queues on SCR, the A316 and Chiswick Lane. A rise in fuel duty in the budget may lessen this trend slightly in the short term but, going forward, there appear to be lots of factors that will increase usage of the A4 and few that will reduce it, so I remain unconvinced this problem isn't going to get progressively worse.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 24d

You’d struggle less to understand what you think I said if you stopped making it up! There is no contradiction between seeing an increase in delays on a longer stretch and a smaller reduction on a shorter portion. To quantify, the delay on the A4 through Chiswick dropped from 240s in 2019 to 226s in 2023, while the delay through Hammersmith increased from 256s to 337s. The delay as a whole therefore increased while it dropped through Chiswick.

Tom Pike ● 25d

I am genuinely grateful for you digging out this very useful and interesting data.What I am struggling to understand is how you think it contradicts the report from INRIX which show a significant increase in congestion on the local stretch of the A4 between 2019 and 2023. Yes, there may have been some reversal between 2022 and 2023 which is most likely explained by the extension of the ULEZ in August 2023 but, even then delays are well above pre-pandemic levels.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 25d

As I said, the data is on the DfT website, though it's cumbersome to extract:

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/road-congestion-and-reliability-statistics 

Here's a plot of the delays along the stretch from Wellesley Road to Warwick Road:



The persistent feature is the delay at Warwick Road reflecting it's the surface crossing point of major EW/NS routes.  From the flyover west delays are pretty similar.

I'm sure you'll want to say something about the causes of the detailed changes, but at least you'll be basing your speculation on actual data.

Tom Pike ● 26d

Tom, an improvement from 2022 to 2023 may be explained by the extension of the ULEZ in outer London in August 2023.The effect of this is rapidly dissipating as the number of non-compliant vehicles owned across the south east reduced so it would be wrong to see this as any other than a one off.It is INRIX not me that have chosen to present their report to cover the stretch of the A4 from the west end to Chiswick Roundabout. It would seem odd that, if as you suggest, the delays are concentrated entirely at the eastern end of this section, they would not mention that in their report.It does seem very hard to explain how it could be possible that there is a very significant deterioration at the eastern end of the A4 while at the same time traffic speeds have uniformly increased further west. Afterall tailbacks from Hogarth Roundabout do reach back to Warwick Road particularly in the evening rush hours. It would be very useful if you could, as I have done, provide links to the data that you are using to make these claims.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 26d

Some are eaily impressed, some set their sights higher. Try it one day. Apparently low potassium (hypokalemia) is very common among cyclists who take on water rather than isotonic drinks, so please be careful.

N V Brooks ● 29d

I'm mainly impressed that you've managed to have some self-restraint to control your compulsion to respond within seconds to every post I make. Well done. Treat yourself to a banana.

Paul Campbell ● 29d

Ah, bless you fine and dandy, infact I had a full healthcheck MOT only yesterday. Save for a minor potassium deficiency (eat more bananas) I am fit and well.I know you think that many hang on your every word but that's just your paranoia (they really don't) I simply thank the powers that be that you are there for our collective amusement.Happy now?

N V Brooks ● 29d

Can somebody please check on Nigel Brooks? I've posted a few times recently without him responding within seconds to insult me.I hope he is still alive and well.

Paul Campbell ● 29d

Hmmm, maybe I get Santa involved.

Mark Frost ● 29d

Impossible. Warwick Road is in Kensington whose Council prioritises motorists and traffic flow over road safety

Paul Campbell ● 29d

Jeremy, I'm not being misleading at all! As I said, INRIX numbers from the DfT show that the delay through Chiswick is lower in 2023 than in 2019. I'm not disputing the INRIX figures, I'm basing my analysis on them!In fact the delay gets higher for the links towards central London, being highest at the link by Warwick Road. That's where the tailbacks are increasingly occurring, not at Hogarth roundabout. In fact every other link further west shows overall reduced delays from 2022 to 2023.

Tom Pike ● 29d

Be careful what you wish for. Steve can’t stop thinking about the people whose posts he doesn’t read.

Paul Campbell ● 29d

I'm  aspiring to be on that list of people who's posts Steve doesn't read.

Mark Frost ● 29d

Steve, You are suffering from an acute dose of “Pseudologica Fantastica” which in medical terminology translates to  “Steveballs”.You said that every Council Officer doesn't take Paul seriously.OK – You don't need an effing secretary to name just ONE officer to support your idiot claim.  Just the ONE.Meanwhile, whilst we wait with bated breath, thousands of Chiswick locals are even now tuning into this thread just to watch you being stripped down to your birthday suit stupidly trying to wriggle away from being exposed as a total fraud.Come on Steve – make everyone's day:-Just ONE name

Bill Danton ● 29d

Steve the good news is that repeatedly stating that you don't read my posts definitely avoids people concluding that you are an unhinged obsessive stalker who cannot resist the compulsion to write about me multiple times every day and who fantasises about what strangers might be thinking about me.

Paul Campbell ● 29d

I’m not your secretary old Billy Boy but, to make it easy for your old brain you could just ask Skidmark for the name of any officers who take him seriously. PS. I never read his posts but I can see he has been stalking me again so when to chat to him please remind him that I don’t read his posts because I regard him as a non entity. Most on this forum regard him as the village idiot but some just humour him just for fun. Personally I don’t believe in feeding the Troll

Steve Taylor ● 29d

Jeremy, the more you write the more you expose the vacuity of the banal conspiracy theory peddled by you and Mark Evans. It's utterly pathetic. Anna Kirkpatrick and Michael Brown are a lot better than you at this game.

Paul Campbell ● 29d

"Feel free to name any officers who take old Skidmark seriously "Steve, I don't know any officers.  But YOU do obviously.  Tell you what, I'll make it very easy for you, oaf that you are :-Name me ONE council officer -  just ONE - who doesn't take "old Skidmark" seriously..  I'll give him/her a call and ask  to verify.

Bill Danton ● 29d

"Council Officers" - chortle. The Dunning Kruger is so strong in this one.Amazing how much of his time Steve Taylor devotes to thinking and writing about me considering he never reads my posts. I don't know if anybody has noticed that Steve doesn't read my posts because he doesn't really like to mention it more than five times a day.

Paul Campbell ● 29d

It works here Billy Boy. It’s just you and one other who hero worship old Skidmark. It must be an old boys union sticking together but understanding nout. Feel free to name any officers who take old Skidmark seriously and don’t just humour him for some light entertainment.

Steve Taylor ● 29d

Game, set and match. Mr Pike loses yet another battle with Mr Parkinson who displays vastly superior intellect and doesn’t just argue for the sake of arguing or to try make weak political points.

Steve Taylor ● 29d

"I'm stating that INRIX reports a reduced delay on the A4 through Chiswick in 2023 compared to 2019"When you say "through Chiswick" you are being misleading. You are quoting figures from INRIX that you have discovered which show higher average speeds between Hogarth Roundabout and Chiswick Roundabout during the course of the whole day. The problem for peak hour westbound journeys is the tailbacks from Hogarth Roundabout back towards Piccadilly.INRIX in its annual report choses not to focus on one narrow section but a longer length of the A4 and the report shows categorically that congestion has increased significantly from the west end to Chiswick Roundabout from 2019 to 2023 with wait times increasing from 10 to 14 minutes at peak hours.You are right however, that the average number of vehicles fell between 2019 and 2023. I can't give a categorical explanation as to why this might be but possible reasons are that the DfT traffic data is for a daily average and it may be that peak hour vehicle movements are up or a rise in HGV traffic and an increase in the size of cars since 2019 has made congestion occur more quickly with the same number of vehicles.The fact is that without speculating or arguing we know that congestion on the A4 is getting worse. I really don't understand why you continue to dispute the unambiguous conclusion of the traffic analysis experts who have produced a report on this as well as what surely must be the evidence of your own eyes.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 29d

"As far as I can see your are arguing that their numbers are wrong because average speeds on one section during the whole day have risen and the absolute number of vehicles is not at its peak."I'm not arguing that at all! I'm stating that INRIX reports a reduced delay on the A4 through Chiswick in 2023 compared to 2019. DfT reports a reduced number of vehicles on that stretch too. Those are both facts, not speculation or arguments.

Tom Pike ● 30d

“large part, it is driving  because they have a car, or driving because they have always driven.”Whilst we have all gotten used to Robinson spewing out unadulterated c£-p on this forum, this latest outburst has got to be the most stupid comment he has made for a long time. In his warped mind he somehow gets confused between ancient Ireland and the London A4 in rush hour.

Steve Taylor ● 30d

There are so many people choosing to drive a private vehicle on the A4 during peak hours for many reasons. Not least parents driving their children short distances to schools in and around Chiswick. Quite happy to sit in queues on the A4 instead of walking, cycling or taking PT.

Paul Campbell ● 30d

“ Nobody gets into a motor vehicle to drive on the A4 at peak hours as a matter of personal choice. ”Which is complete rubbish.  In the case of private car drivers, habitual behaviour is a huge reason. People simply don’t do a rational, objective cost/benefit analysis every time they make a decision. In large part, it is driving  because they have a car, or driving because they have always driven.Another factor is, irrespective of journey time, simply preferring to be in their own private space rather than squashed in with the hoi polloi on public transport because that doesn’t fit the image of what an ambitious executive sales rep from Slough thinks they should be.

Michael Robinson ● 30d

I wonder how I  might portray another little world in which a sad and lonely man with nothing better to do hovers around a little-read forum every day awaiting his chance to relaunch his same old worn-out Humpty joke that wasn't the remotest bit funny when it was fist presented years earlier.Like a blue-a*se fly at a barbecue perhaps.

Bill Danton ● 30d

Oh Humpty, what a strange isolated little world you live in.

Richard Greenhough ● 30d

Of all your unevidenced claims that are wrong I think this is my favourite:"Nobody gets into a motor vehicle to drive on the A4 at peak hours as a matter of personal choice."Bravo.

Paul Campbell ● 30d

"Where did I say congestion was imaginary?"On 22 October at 2:44pm on this forum you said, "There are more important things to worry about than your imaginary delays on the A4!"The measurement of delays and the fact that they are increasing is not mine but INRIX's. They are not imagining it.As far as I can see your are arguing that their numbers are wrong because average speeds on one section during the whole day have risen and the absolute number of vehicles is not at its peak. This seems to me unsound.On Michael's 'so what', the concern about this stretch of the A4 is elasticity of demand. Nobody gets into a motor vehicle to drive on the A4 at peak hours as a matter of personal choice. Much of this traffic is freight, commercial, delivery and commuters. I understand that increasing capacity on the road will probably also stimulate demand but demand is going to rise anyway due to the pace of development.Traffic is only going to evaporate to a meaningful degree if viable alternatives are available and, going back to my earlier point, there doesn't seem to be anything in the pipeline.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 30d

“As I write the queue off the A4 is stretching back up Chiswick Lane. I don't think you would get a pleasant response if you told anyone sitting in traffic there that the congestion was imaginary.”Where did I say congestion was imaginary? Clearly there are delays, but they have fallen on the A4 through Chiswick. I haven’t said anything about either Chiswick Lane or Burlington Lane. You’re just making that up, just as you made up that traffic was inexorably climbing on the A4 due to Heathrow.

Tom Pike ● 31d

OK.  Excuse me Keith and Paul.  I'm stepping in here.Steve:-  "My understanding is that council officers regard Skidmark as a huge joke; a little wind-up toy they can play with to march to their tunes.It’s hilarious that he is too stupid to see it. Dullard!"That is a pile of malicious and very nasty and completely false troll poo. Every word of it.  "Council officers" YOUR a*se.That stuff doesn't work anywhere.  It says everything about YOU and nothing about your target.Grow up!

Bill Danton ● 31d

I can see now why you haven’t been able to let it go since 2017.

Paul Campbell ● 31d

My understanding is that council officers regard Skidmark as a huge joke; a little wind-up toy they can play with to march to their tunes. It’s hilarious that he is too stupid to see it. Dullard!

Steve Taylor ● 31d

This gets better and better.Keep it up.

Keith Iddon ● 31d

“despite a 76%-24% majority against in a 'consultation'.“No you misrepresented a consultation as a referendum because you didn’t get your way and you haven’t got over it.

Paul Campbell ● 31d

All I said was beware consultation from LBH,but as you seem to be the self appointed council bs spokesman, I defer to you as you also seem to have an endless supply of that particular commodity.

Keith Iddon ● 31d

I’m not the one crowbarring a petty whinge about something that happened seven years ago into this thread. It’s pretty clear who has the hump and can’t cope with not getting his way all that time ago.

Paul Campbell ● 31d

I know. As I said better for your health than whining about not getting your way on something that happened  years go.

Paul Campbell ● 31d

I think he's got the hump,although it's hard to tell.

Keith Iddon ● 31d

Paul,I'm laughing at you,not the op.

Keith Iddon ● 31d

I don’t read Humpties posts but assume the old egg has fallen off the wall again with outrage that NOTHING ever goes his way. He is just such a loser it’s hilarious.

Steve Taylor ● 31d

One of the common symptoms of carbrain is amnesia. Jeremy has got a very bad case of it.

Paul Campbell ● 31d

That's good. Much better for you than continuing to whine that a consultation on Church St was not a referendum more than seven years after the event. Keep laughing and you might even get over it.

Paul Campbell ● 31d

"Explaining very basic and understandable things like the definition of words to people who lag average intelligence and don’t know how to use a dictionary?"This sounds like the ideal course for you to attend, Humpty. It might reduce the number of Humpty-isms you post where you use words to mean just what you choose them to mean.

Richard Greenhough ● 31d

Jeremy, my response is still 'so what'?Too many people driving means they all slow each other down, it is inevitable. There isn't any magical way around this other than reducing the number of people driving. Reducing proportion of journeys made by private car is a key objective of the Mayor's transport strategy so making car journeys more convenient isn't a priority at all.Trying to increase 'supply' is pointless so the only way is to manage demand.  Buses, trains, planes, all have differential pricing so drivers will need to get used to it as well.

Michael Robinson ● 31d

Keep it up,you're making me laugh.

Keith Iddon ● 31d

Michael, the 'so what' here is the impact that A4 congestion has on Chiswick. The phasing of lights is dynamically managed and when queues build up there are shorter phases for the roads crossing the A4 in this case the A316 and Sutton Court Road. Looking at traffic conditions on Google Maps as I write there is queueing down past Edensor Road on the A316 right now. When the phase on SCR is shortened, traffic queues reach up to Heathfield Terrace and have a knock on effect on the High Road. If A4 usage is increasing the number of 'traffic events' in the centre of Chiswick will rise.You are right that congestion will discourage some journeys and some will 'evaporate' but others will be displaced leading to more congestion across Chiswick.It is also correct to assume that the ultimate resolution to this problem has to involve some sort of pay per mile system probably with a premium rate for use of the busiest roads at peak times. However, ULEZ has probably put the implementation of this back by up to a decade because of the political fallout. The new system has to be carefully designed to not be as regressive as ULEZ otherwise it will not be possible to persuade people it is necessary.Tom, I'm not sure how you can say that congestion on the A4 has not increased since pre-Covid when a comparison of the INRIX reports from 2019 and 2023 shows that this is exactly what has happened. The average peak time delay westbound on the road through Chiswick has risen from 10 to 14 minutes resulting in it being ranked as the third most congested in the UK.That you have managed to dig out a stat that shows average speeds across the whole day may have increased on a section of this road doesn't negate INRIX's conclusion. As I write the queue off the A4 is stretching back up Chiswick Lane. I don't think you would get a pleasant response if you told anyone sitting in traffic there that the congestion was imaginary.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 31d

Explaining very basic and understandable things like the definition of words to people who lag average intelligence and don’t know how to use a dictionary? Agreed. Sign me up. Money for old rope.

Paul Campbell ● 32d

No, I rest my case about the job I think you should have.

Keith Iddon ● 32d

You don’t have a case to rest. Just incoherent outrage

Paul Campbell ● 32d

I rest my case.

Keith Iddon ● 32d

Both LBH and LBE redefined the term consultation years ago.It now simply means "whatever we want it to be as long as it delivers the desired (i.e. our chosen) result."

N V Brooks ● 32d

You only think it’s BS because the process doesn’t give you what you want, which is to have a veto on something you don’t like. People like you have to reinvent the word “consultation” to fuel the meagre fire of their outrage.

Paul Campbell ● 32d

There isn’t a head. It’s a headless chicken

Steve Taylor ● 32d

You should be head of LBH BS dept.

Keith Iddon ● 32d

It means listening to and incorporating valid inputs to make a scheme better. It doesn’t mean giving angry naysayers with spurious arguments a veto

Paul Campbell ● 32d

Yes and 'consultation' does not mean 'lip service'.

Keith Iddon ● 32d

“Consultation” is a different word to “referendum” isn’t it?

Paul Campbell ● 32d

I take it this is Church St in W4.The closure of Church St in Brentford was enforced by the council despite a 76%-24% majority against in a 'consultation'.Beware of that particular 'C'word from LBH.

Keith Iddon ● 32d

"I'll ask again, why should we not be concerned about increasing congestion on the A4 in Chiswick? It already has the third most congestion in the UK and therefore probably Europe and the problem has got significant worse from 2019-23."I've already given you a very direct answer, but you seem unable to accept it. Delays on the A4 thought Chiswick are lower in 2023 then there were in 2019. There are more important things to worry about than your imaginary delays on the A4!

Tom Pike ● 32d

Jeremy - you may be concerned about increased congestion but my response is - so what?If some journeys get longer then that is an incentive for people to switch modes and times.  "I can't see other influences that would tend to suppress the number of vehicles on this road"Have you ever heard of usage-based pricing, or pay-per-mile?The government will need to do something to replace fuel duty given increased proportion of EVs and usage pricing seems to be a favoured candidate.  Just charge drivers more for using major arterial roads at peak times to manage demand.

Michael Robinson ● 32d

I haven't been able to find the INRIX data you refer to but I'm not querying their accuracy.The numbers in the INRIX annual reports I cited are for the A4 eastbound from the west end to Chiswick Roundabout, a much longer stretch which show a significant increase in peak time delays from 2019-2023.It is entirely possible that average speeds could have increased between Hogarth Roundabout and Chiswick Roundabout during this period. This would be achieved by changing the phasing at the Sutton Court Road junction and using this road, including E3 bus users can tell you the green phase going north to south can be cut to a few seconds leading to tailbacks into the centre of Chiswick.The average speed achievable on the clear section of the road to the west of Hogarth Roundabout may have increased but, in the last four years, it has not done so sufficiently to reduce the journey time along the broader stretch of the A4 we are looking at.On correlations, assuming you agree that there would be a positive correlation between Heathrow airport arrivals and traffic on the A4 and the significant increase in population density taking place on the A4 corridor will also tend to boost demand to use the road, would you not accept that, all other things being equal, congestion will rise?For the past decade or so there has been a number of factors with a negative correlation with A4 use eg regulatory - ULEZ and the Congestion Charge, social, infrastructural - improved public transport such as the Elizabeth line. The effect of these has ended or may be even reversing and I can't see other influences that would tend to suppress the number of vehicles on this road.I'll ask again, why should we not be concerned about increasing congestion on the A4 in Chiswick? It already has the third most congestion in the UK and therefore probably Europe and the problem has got significant worse from 2019-23. Perhaps this time you could answer without trying to bog the argument down in semantics, not come up with an out of context piece of data which doesn't actually prove anything and refrain from calling me a slippery dunce. I am genuinely interested in what you have to say but your refusal to address this simple and paramount question concerns me.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 32d

But I didn’t comment about “exact correlation” or congestion on the Chertsey Road. You were determined to make up what I’ve said! “Slippery” is a kind word in the circumstances!The congestion figures from INRIX at the link level are publicly available from the DfT site. I’m using the numbers for the A4 through Chiswick, between Hogarth and Chiswick roundabouts. Delays are down on that stretch.  The simple point is that firstly both traffic counts and congestion are lower on the A4 through Chiswick compared to 2019 and secondly there’s nothing inevitable about higher numbers of passengers at Heathrow pushing those figures up. This is contrary to your erroneous claims, made before you even looked at the data, that the numbers suggested otherwise.

Tom Pike ● 33d

"You're just being very slippery here, Jeremy. Since 2000 passengers at Heathrow are up 25% and traffic on the A4 at Hogarth roundabout is down 10%. There's no error in those numbers, is there?"No there isn't but I am perplexed you don't seem to understand the difference between a positive correlation and an exact correlation."I haven't said anything about congestion - you're just making that up!"Am I not wrong to have concluded that in the past, for instance regarding Chiswick High Road and the A316 that you have argued that a reduced number of vehicles recorded as travelling along a road proves that the congestion that people have observed isn't happening? "But as for congestion on the A4 through Chiswick is concerned, maybe you need to look at the actual INRIX figures for the stretch of the A4 through Chiswick! In 2019 the delay was 97s and in 2023 62 s. For the third time in one thread, you've failed to actually look at the data before sharing your opinion of what you think the data is! Other people can judge if that makes you a dunce you yourself suggest."You may have access to more detailed figures from INRIX than the rest of us but I am looking at what it publishes at the time of its annual traffic report.In 2019 it stated that the average peak time delay in traffic approaching Chiswick on the A4 was 10 minutes:https://inrix.com/press-releases/2019-traffic-scorecard-uk/#:~:text=The%20findings%20show%2C%20on%20average,hours%20per%20year%20to%20congestionBy 2023 the same report was saying that the delays on the same stretch of road had risen to 14 minutes making it the UK's third most congested road with the eastbound carriageway second. https://inrix.com/press-releases/2023-global-traffic-scorecard-uk/The DfT numbers do show that the number of vehicles on this part of the A4 is down from 2019 to 2023 so we have apparently fewer vehicles moving more slowly. It would be interesting to hear how you account for this but surely the increase in HGVs has to be a factor along with ULEZ discouraging more off peak private car journeys.The broad overview remains that we have UK's third most congested road going through our area with every indication of increased demand for usage ahead with no mitigations planned. I'm concerned about this and the impact it may have on our community going forward. Perhaps you could explain in simple terms in words that a dunce like me can understand, why I don't need to be?

Jeremy Parkinson ● 33d

You're just being very slippery here, Jeremy. Since 2000 passengers at Heathrow are up 25% and traffic on the A4 at Hogarth roundabout is down 10%. There's no error in those numbers, is there?I haven't said anything about congestion - you're just making that up! But as for congestion on the A4 through Chiswick is concerned, maybe you need to look at the actual INRIX figures for the stretch of the A4 through Chiswick! In 2019 the delay was 97s and in 2023 62 s. For the third time in one thread, you've failed to actually look at the data before sharing your opinion of what you think the data is! Other people can judge if that makes you a dunce you yourself suggest.

Tom Pike ● 37d

There we go - step 6 of the Parkinson rhetoric - resort to anecdotes. If he had started there instead of inventing facts to support his bogus thesis then he would actually look less ridiculous.

Paul Campbell ● 37d

Of course you will be dismissed Jeremy.  You have no actual evidence.  You just have anecdotes.  You are starting with a position based upon your bias and prejudices then constructing an imagined narrative in an attempt to justify your own biases. It is what you do.

Michael Robinson ● 37d

Tom, in declining my invitation not to engage in statistical quibbles you have ended up arguing that there is no correlation between Heathrow passenger numbers and traffic on the A4. I'm scratching my head to try and understand the vehemence with which you are willing to die on this particular hill and deny we have a problem here.INRIX's most recent survey rated London as Europe's most congested city and the A4 eastbound and westbound around Chiswick the second and third most contested roads.You are dismissive of reports from local people in the area when they give observational evidence of the impact of this particularly with regard to queues back down the A316. Your fall back is that the number of vehicles is not rising and you use that to reach the erroneous conclusion that this means people must be mistaken about the congestion they are seeing. Your earlier error about the number of cars using the A4 suggests you haven't taken the time to check for yourself.With a weary anticipation of yet more bogus statistics' based deflection and suggestions I am a dunce rather than a willingness to answer my questions, I'll try again.Why do you think there is no reason to be concerned about growing levels of traffic on a road that is already among Europe's most congested with the prospect of significant future growth at Heathrow and massive development planned along the A4 corridor.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 37d

“ first lesson to be learned is to look at the data before making any claims.”First fact is that there have been no serious accidents so not necessary to spend money making it safer. We’re safe enough.

Steve Taylor ● 38d

I think this argument has gone really well for Jeremy, Francis and Mark. Let's recap.1. TfL say they are going to make changes to a roundabout to make it safer2. The clever trio point out that this is definitely a lie because TfL is obviously doing it to relieve traffic congestion caused by increased volumes of traffic3. Tom shares the data which show that traffic volumes have not increased; they have actually decreased4. The conspiracy theorists change their argument to state that TfL is anticipating that traffic volumes will increase because passenger numbers at Heathrow are increasing5. Tom shares the data which show that there is no positive correlation between traffic volumes on the A4 and passenger numbers at HeathrowThere is a lot of work for our local disinformation campaigners to do from here but I have faith in them to double down.

Paul Campbell ● 38d

The first lesson to be learned is to look at the data before making any claims.It was you that made the claim there was a correlation by saying according to past data, an increase of passenger numbers "will be accompanied by a similar increase in traffic on the A4". That's the very definition of a positive correlation, but one that doesn't exist.My response was simply to point out the change in the past data between 2020 and 2019 were in opposite directions. You now look like you're wriggling out of admitting your prime error, to cite data without checking that it supports your opinion.

Tom Pike ● 38d

Heathrow passenger numbers include transit passengers who never leave the terminal.  You may be worried about traffic on the A4 but you have done no research into actual traffic figures or understanding of what is behind Heathrow passenger numbers so that doesn't mean your views need to be treated seriously.My prediction for Hogarth roundabout is within the next 5 years, the flyover will be closed because it is life-expired and there won't be a replacement.

Michael Robinson ● 38d

We all make mistakes but perhaps its a lesson that observation does provide a sanity check for conclusions based on purely looking at numbers.Tom also seems to have somehow got it into his head that I am arguing that there is a total correlation between Heathrow Passenger arrivals and traffic on the A4. I hope it is obvious to others who have read what I have posted that isn't what I am saying.2018 and 2019 were the two peak years for Heathrow passenger throughput. 2017 and 2019 were the peak years for the number of vehicles using the A4 at a point just east of Hogarth roundabout with 2018 marginally behind 2017.There are obviously a lot of factors that influence the number of vehicles using the A4 in addition to Heathrow and in recent years these would include ULEZ, the congestion charge, the opening of the Elizabeth line, drop off charges at the airport and the level of congestion. These mean there won't be a perfect correlation between Heathrow arrivals and A4 traffic but in 2024 I can't think of any factor that is likely to have more influence that Heathrow passenger numbers. If you take the monthly numbers so far (up to September) and assume no growth for the remainder of the year compared to 2023, the airport will smash its previous record. For the A4 to reach a new high it would have to see an increase of around 15% in vehicles which may not happen as it would be greater than the increase in Heathrow's numbers but there doesn't seem to be any factor mitigating against traffic growth at the moment. I asked earlier what would offset other trends such as airport expansion and the huge number of housing starts in the A4 corridor and the only answer I got was the possibility of a signalling upgrade for the Piccadilly line.It would be helpful that, rather than coming up with irrelevant quibbles about data, those who disagree with what I am suggesting would explain why we don't need to worry about continued traffic growth on the A4 and why TfL isn't worried if they don't believe the Hogarth Roundabout plan was primarily about relieving congestion.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 38d

You weren't really questioning the figures, Francis, just pedantically clarifying that the 100k referred to an Annual Average Daily Flow (AADF) not a total for the year, which is so blooming obvious that Michael didn't get what your point was!

Tom Pike ● 39d

Yes, an 'average' means that on some days it is more, on some days it is less.You must have only looked on the days when it was more.

Michael Robinson ● 39d

I thought it had been suggested that the Waterloo to Weybridge service via the Hounslow Loop could be diverted to Heathrow and a separate service would then run from Heathrow to Weybridge. This would impact on some commuters but would minimise that impact while greatly improving access to Heathrow from south-west London and the rest of the South Western Railways network.

Richard Greenhough ● 39d

Francis doesn’t need to contact DfT to advise that their counters are wrong, as you sarcastically suggest, because Tom has already admitted that HIS figure was wrong @ 101k cars  per year which Francis questioned.

Steve Taylor ● 39d

My occasional look at traffic seems to have been quite reliable as I was right that there are considerably more than 100,000 vehicles going up and down the A4 every year. I wasn't querying the official count rather the figures being quoted.

Francis Rowe ● 39d

An issue with the proposed SW rail link to Heathrow is there isn't capacity in the existing rail network to handle additional services to Heathrow.Proposals have therefore been  to 'rob Peter to pay Paul' and reduce services at some locations in order to provide services to Heathrow.Understandably, there isn't agreement that many people should have worse service for the daily commute for some other people to save some time getting to Heathrow.I don't know if there are easy options to increase capacity in the rail network.  Or if capacity could be increased but that would result in closing some of the level crossings.

Michael Robinson ● 39d

Francis, you don't need to take Tom's word for it, data from the DfT's network of automated traffic counters is all publicly available.You could always contact them and say from your occasional look at traffic on the A4, you are sure their counters are wrong. Let us know what response you get.

Michael Robinson ● 39d

Yes, it's the annual daily average!So a 100k annual daily average amounts to 36.5 million vehicles, compared to Heathrow's 65 million passengers in 2000 and 81 million passengers in 2019. So the number of passengers passing through Heathrow's terminals went from 1.8 to 2.3 times the number of vehicles travelling on the A4.

Tom Pike ● 39d

Tom, at the risk of this being dismissed as anecdote, I'd say that there are a lot more than 100,000 vehicles a year going up the A4 by Chiswick but I guess if that's what your statistics say we will need to take your word for it.

Francis Rowe ● 39d

"The monthly Heathrow numbers indicate that the 2018 record year will be substantially exceeded in 2024. Past data suggests that this will be accompanied by a similar increase in traffic on the A4."Do you ever look at the data before posting what you think the data should say, Jeremy?In 2000 there were 65 m passengers at Heathrow, and 101k vehicles a year along the A4 through Chiswick. In 2019 there were 81 m passengers and 98k vehicles a year.

Tom Pike ● 39d

The powers that be need to commit to building a direct access to Heathrow from the South Western Railway network. This scheme comes up from time to time and then quietly fades away.

Richard Greenhough ● 39d

“ The monthly Heathrow numbers indicate that the 2018 record year will be substantially exceeded in 2024. Past data suggests that this will be accompanied by a similar increase in traffic on the A4.”So if this government was in the least bit interested in climate change and global warming they would be actively campaigning against air travel.

Steve Taylor ● 39d

Heathrow claim that the growth in public transport provision will mean that there will be no net increase in vehicle movements to the airport if the third runway is built which I think we can all agree is nonsense.Even if true much of the increase in public transport use will come from HS2 and new western and southern access routes and all the heavy lifting on the A4 corridor will have to be done by the Piccadilly line. With no commitment on the signalling upgrade as yet it can't be assumed there will be a big enough increase here to make a difference but if you are right about the numbers then there is no choice but to go ahead.

Mark Evans ● 39d

"The relevance of historical data is that M4 traffic volumes were even higher prior to 2010 than they were in 2019, let alone now."I'd admit past data is relevant to an extent but not predictive. I don't know what data point you are looking at but the one I am using is Site number: 46121 which is just to the east of Hogarth Roundabout. This shows that with a few outliers, the number of vehicles passing this point on a daily basis is between around 85,000 and 110,000.It is not correct to say that there were higher occurrences at the beginning of the century than we have seen in recent years. The peak was 2018 followed by 2019 which also happen to be the peak years for Heathrow passenger numbers. The monthly Heathrow numbers indicate that the 2018 record year will be substantially exceeded in 2024. Past data suggests that this will be accompanied by a similar increase in traffic on the A4."HGVs only make up about 3% of vehicles on the M4, the overwhelming majority are cars, so even if HGV volumes doubled, traffic would still be less than it was in 2019 and a lot less than it was in the 00s."There is a confusion here between 'traffic' and the number of vehicles on the road. HGVs take up much more road space and combine that with the significant increase in car size, the same number of vehicles that used the road in the 00s will cause a lot more congestion in 2024.My concern is that if you combine the Heathrow resurgence, with the lessening of the dampening effect of ULEZ as people switch to compliant cars and the significant growth in housing units along this corridor (28,000 in Hounslow borough alone) we will see the number of motor vehicles on the A4 go beyond the historic range.Mark is right that better public transport can help and there may be some forces that create an equilibrium here that prevent vehicle number rising above a certain amount. However, TfL don't seem to believe this which is why they want to widen the A4.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 39d

Jeremy, you can't just accommodate expected future demand by ever widening roads. The way to restrict growth is by better public transport alternatives and you can see that working in 2022/3 with the Elizabeth line harnessing the growth in car journeys. I think you might be right about the third runway but that has to come after the full introduction of the new Piccadilly line stock, the signalling upgrade and the West London Orbital Line.

Mark Evans ● 40d

The relevance of historical data is that M4 traffic volumes were even higher prior to 2010 than they were in 2019, let alone now.HGVs only make up about 3% of vehicles on the M4, the overwhelming majority are cars, so even if HGV volumes doubled, traffic would still be less than it was in 2019 and a lot less than it was in the 00s.

Michael Robinson ● 40d

I'm not sure I see the relevance of the historic data here unless you think there will be another pandemic and more ULEZ type restrictions will be introduced.For cars and taxis we are not quite back to 2019 levels but the Heathrow drop off charge and the ULEZ extension will have probably suppressed numbers temporarily and that must also account for the very slow bounce back in LGVs. HGVs however are well above all time highs in 2023.With Heathrow breaking records for freight volume and passenger numbers in 2024, is it not likely we are already at 2019 levels overall?Going forward you have a pro-growth Labour government likely to be amenable to a 'better not bigger' Heathrow in the short term and a Third Runway in the medium term. You have a massive amount of development along this corridor including the huge schemes around Syon Lane. If you don't accept the view that the prospect is for increased vehicle movements on the A4 in west London can you explain what factors are going to restrict growth?

Jeremy Parkinson ● 40d

“Usage of the A4 has fallen significantly with vehicle numbers in 2023 both east and west of Hogarth 10% below 2019 levels.“So this entire consultation has just been a total waste of time and money to justify some jobsworths’ existence at TfL. No ‘modification’ is required.

Steve Taylor ● 40d

Why interrupt the usual suspects from using this forum to spread disinformation with inconvenient facts Tom?

Paul Campbell ● 40d

"There doesn't seem to be any prospect of usage of the A4 falling."Usage of the A4 has fallen significantly with vehicle numbers in 2023 both east and west of Hogarth 10% below 2019 levels.

Tom Pike ● 40d

Yes, I would have thought A316 / M3 is the better option.

Steve Taylor ● 40d

I have noticed over recent years that my SatNav tends to point me to the M4 if I want to get to the southern section of the M25. Pre-SatNav I always used to assume that, at quiet times a more direct route would be quicker but these days I trust the technology and do what I am told.If all traffic from west London heading to points south of London is being directed to the A4/M4 then this might explain TfL's keenness to increase the road's capacity.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 40d

Many people like me who used to use Hammersmith Bridge to get to the A4 / M4 from Barnes aren’t necessarily now using Chiswick Bridge to join the A4 because it’s less congested to stay on the A316 and then use the A312 to join A4 or M4 or A30. It remains to be seen if, when Hammersmith Bridge is reopened, those people will use it or continue to use the A316. It’s quite congested driving from Barnes through Mortlake to Chalkers Corner to join the A316

Steve Taylor ● 43d

Given the relative volumes of traffic, the increasing tailbacks on the A316 are likely to be primarily caused by more vehicles using the A4. Heathrow is at record passenger levels and freight is also seeing strong growth.This has resulted in longer tailbacks both ways and TfL seems therefore to have reduced the phase times for roads joining the A4 which means the queues back along the A316 and Chiswick Lane are getting longer.Tom Pike will tell you that the number of vehicle crossings over Chiswick Bridge has fallen since Hammersmith Bridge closed and he is not wrong. He would further claim this is down to 'evaporation' which is probably partly true. Whether through the use of traffic-sensitive SatNavs or just experience, the congestion on the A316 will mean that people will avoid the route. How many cancel their journey and how many are displaced elsewhere we don't know. However, we can see while there are fewer vehicles using the road there is far more congestion. Just talk to a parent of a child at Cavendish school if you doubt this.That's not to say the Hammersmith Bridge closure and, to a lesser extent, the Grove Park access restrictions, don't mean the A316 queues aren't worse than they might otherwise be but I think we would still have them even if the bridge fully opened and the restrictions were scrapped.There doesn't seem to be any prospect of usage of the A4 falling so this problem is only going to get gradually worse so it is understandable that TfL wanted to take measures to deal with it.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 43d

The pressure on the A316 / Chiswick bridge is to a large extent caused by the closure of Hammersmith Bridge.

Steve Taylor ● 44d

You are almost definitely right on the first point but what we don't have is any information and modelling which would show why it might be imperative to increase capacity at the Hogarth Roundabout. There is already an issue with not just tailbacks both ways on the A4 but also back down the A316 and Chiswick Lane. With the massive population surge likely along the A4 due to new developments and continued growth at Heathrow even assuming no third runway, this situation is only going to get worse. Building roads to accommodate traffic growth is unfashionable which is why TfL isn't talking about this but it is hard to see any other reasons for advancing these plans.

Francis Rowe ● 44d

Even if you take the Church Street closure out of the plan this still doesn't remove the main objection which is that this is a road widening scheme justified with a spurious argument about safety.To anyone who still doubts this, read Hounslow's full response. They requested more detail about the collision data from TfL and didn't get it, they raised concerns about additional safety issues with the new design and never heard back and they received the Road Safety Audits too late in the process to have time for proper consideration.

Mark Evans ● 45d

In the context of the officers from her department producing such a clear minded criticism of the scheme, this seems a very unfair take.TfL has to answer the questions raised and if they don't then it is hard to see how the Church Street aspect of this proposal proceeds. The fact that they haven't addressed these concerns already may mean that any answers would be unsatisfactory.That leaves the issue of whether or not the scheme is viable without the Church Street closure. A number of people on this forum have expressed confusion as why this was being recommended as it didn't seem necessary and was the source of the strongest objections.What certainly won't be adapted are the daft suggestions for pedestrian and cyclist phases at road level. This must have been a late addition made for political reasons because everyone would agree the idea is nonsense. Given the lengthy delays that would be required to cross the A4 at this point, the subway will always be the best option and the delays to traffic due to the longer wait phases would mean the queues both ways on the A4, up Chiswick Lane and the A316 would be even longer undermining the whole point of the scheme in the first place.

Francis Rowe ● 46d

It would be sensible if the whole project is dead in the water and consigned to the dustbin but with Cllr Dunne as Lead Member, don’t hold your breath.

Steve Taylor ● 46d