Forum Topic

Jeremy Parkinson · 10/4/2024 5:41:00 PM

new.ChiswickW4.com Communtity Forum Topic posting

Developer pulls out of Watermans scheme

This isn't a huge surprise and it probable means some progress can be made at last (see front page). I wonder who owns the designs for the scheme that has been given permission. It was the council that was paying to keep it on life support by submitting another planning application so hopefully the talks they are having with other developers is to take on and complete the already consented scheme.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 50d62 Comments

I understand that there may be a safety gain by putting in a extra staircase core but it is a very marginal one assuming the buildings on the two sites were compliant with existing fire safety standards. Most buildings of this height in the country don't have a second staircase and I presume that in part is due to the Fire Brigade having ladders that can reach up to ten storeys.There is no obligation to be compliant with the new regulation for a building that already has planning permission and the regulation doesn't come into effect until 2026. What it does mean is that the space available for both the arts centre and the flats will be reduced. As they are still taking about 100+ flats for the Half Acre site this necessarily means they will be significantly smaller. If it was me I would choose to have a larger flat and no second staircase.It seems surprising this decision has been made given the issues with the viability of the scheme. For that reason it is probably one that has been forced on the council and the developers rather than an active choice.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 12d

More wokery

Paul Campbell ● 15d

The second staircase is being installed to make the buildings safer for the people who live in them.

Mark Evans ● 15d

What I don't understand is why a second staircase core is being installed. There is no requirement to do this until September 2026 and hardly any existing buildings of this height have a second staircase. The explanation given is that it could affect the market value of the flats on resale but this doesn't seem that convincing.The requirement for a second staircase reduces the space available for the arts centre by a fifth although it looks like the cinema will be what makes way.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 16d

Presumably Cllr Shaheen was aware of the progress being made on the project when he made that pledge so nobody is being bailed out here. The talks with the new housing partner are said to be 'advanced' therefore there is probably in principle agreement but no formal one. The council presumably decided that it was better to move forward quickly rather than awaiting formalities to be complete.It is sad that the old Watermans is no more but if the reason is that work on the site is going to start next year then this is good news rather than bad news. A huge amount of money would have been needed to get it in a fit state and that would be a waste if it was only for a few months.

Mark Evans ● 17d

Possibly more a bailout for the councillors who have been saying this project is definitely going ahead. I don't understand why this has been announced before the new housing provider is signed up - without them, the project can't proceed.What we do know now is that the old Watermans will never reopen.

Anita Blake ● 18d

Looks like the council have finally accepted taxpayers' money has to be spent to revive this project. (See article on front page) This hopefully will get things going again.On the Beck - here is a link to the full article you quoted from - seems like there is a bit of 'he said, she said' here but my understanding was there was no cash subsidy to Trafalgar but it did receive other incentives from the council to keep it running.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czj7ngw49n9o

Francis Rowe ● 19d

Frome the BBC"Hillingdon Council said it was seeking new management for the venue.The local authority said it had offered to renew Trafalgar's lease at a "peppercorn rent" and to continue being responsible for building repairs, but it would not continue to pay a subsidy.It said it was "no longer appropriate with public finances under such pressure" and noted Trafalgar Theatres was owned by a profit-making organisation that paid dividends.In absence of an agreement, Trafalgar's contract would cease in January and the theatre would close while commercial theatre consultants found new management, the council said."

N V Brooks ● 19d

Not according to what LBHillingdon has put into the public domain and which has not been immediately countered by Trafalgar.

N V Brooks ● 19d

I thought with the Beck that it was the other way round - Trafalgar was happy with the arrangement but the council wanted to increase what it paid to use the site?I'm delighted to see that Mark is finally coming round to my way of thinking on the issue of affordable housing and that the current system doesn't deliver the kind of housing we need at a price that people can pay.

Francis Rowe ● 19d

Something very odd happening at The Beck.Hillingdon pick up the maintenance bills and let the current tenants rent for a peppercorn, rumour has it that is single figures.The commercial enterprise that own it and tekes the profits from hugely popular shows including a normally sold out panto and 'revival' nights, now wants a subsidy, Something wrong there surely.

N V Brooks ● 22d

The Beck Theatre has now closed although the council has said it is in talks with other partners to reopen it - but that's what we heard when the Waterman's shut.This news might strengthen the council's hand if it decided to ditch the affordable element of the scheme at Half Acre to simplify the scheme and encourage the private sector developer to crack on. They would have to persuade the Mayor that the provision of the arts centre offset the zero affordable housing component and was justified on viability grounds. It might leave an unpleasant taste in the mouth to not provide affordable units, but if no Housing Association is willing to take the ones on from the original design, what choice is there.

Mark Evans ● 22d

Although the Albany Riverside development is a guaranteed money spinner, this was probably built into the original viability assessment. Since then likely sale prices have not risen but construction costs and interest rates have with a forthcoming boost to employers' NICs requiring another look at the figures. If this government is true to its word on clearing the blockages in the planning system, developers are going to be focused on new projects where the financials work better for them, so I'd be surprised (though delighted) if the current Watermans plan was ever resurrected in its current form.

Francis Rowe ● 24d

Thanks Anita. I was unaware of the situation with the Beck Theatre and there are some interesting parallels with Watermans. Part of the problem with Hounslow Arts Trust appears to have been it was more focused on getting grant funding than selling tickets and this may be a feature of the not-for-profit arts sector. The likelihood is that if Trafalgar leave the Beck Theatre the taxpayer will need to provide a far higher level of subsidy to maintain a theatre there.I missed Mark's earlier point but now must concede it is a very good one. The best hope for the Watermans is a reopening in Brentford and it may not be as difficult to achieve as some of us initially feared.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 26d

The current plight of the Beck theatre in Hayes might have some relevance here. The council, having let the theatre operate rent free are now asking Trafalgar Theatre for money saying that they shouldn't be subsidising a private company.Trafalgar look as though they are going to walk away from the venue.The non-private sector arts trust that ran the Watermans couldn't get it to work but maybe a specialist theatre company might have been able to do so. However, it looks like this option isn't one that councils are willing to consider any more.https://harrowonline.org/2024/10/26/beck-theatre-in-hayes-begins-cancelling-shows-as-future-hangs-by-a-thread/

Anita Blake ● 27d

You are overlooking that the Brentford arts centre scheme was not going to be funded by the flats at Half Acre but the waterside development on the old Watermans site. Whatever the situation with oversupply of flats in the area, apartments with views of the river are always snapped up. A Brentford scheme probably offers the best hope of a new centre being built. The problem here appears to be not that the flat sales won't fund the centre but that it is proving impossible to find a housing association to take on the affordable component which is a London wide problem and something the Mayor and the new government need to give urgent consideration to otherwise there will be no recovery in housing starts.

Mark Evans ● 38d

Avoiding a place where you might have to do physical exercise might be something you choose to do but the Fountains receives 14,000 visits a month so there are lot of people who have a different approach and its future does matter.Anita makes an excellent point about the property sales. The Watermans deal collapsed for two reasons - the private sector developer couldn't make enough on market sales and the housing association couldn't financially support taking on the affordable units.If there is a glut of flats in Brentford with a huge overhang of unsold units, then any feasibility study into the viability of a new leisure centre must take this into account and it shouldn't be taken as read that it won't be concluded that it is unviable.I can understand if people from Brentford would be upset if they lost both an arts centre and a leisure centre in short order but if a property development can't fund the replacement it certainly won't be the council with its £30million deficit which has required it to cut tax support for the poorest households.There is no guarantee that the same realities wouldn't scupper any plan to build a theatre in Chiswick. We don't know how well sales of flats have gone at Empire House and if there are a substantial number of units unsold there - a scheme to fund a theatre with flats on the post office site would probably be a non-starter. However, if it is doable it shouldn't be blocked because a Brentford councillor has made an unwise commitment that any arts facility provided would be in TW8.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 40d

Who cares. Get a life. Everyone knows where this disgusting place is because it’s to be avoided.

Steve Taylor ● 41d

Though somewhat confusingly the leasure centre is on the A205 as opposed to Chiswick high road which is the A315.

Mark Frost ● 41d

"BFLC is on Chiswick Road, the short stretch of road between Kew Bridge and Chiswick Roundabout, not Chiswick High Road. "Nope, the address of BFLC is 658 Chiswick High Rd, TW8 0HJ.Chiswick Road is a completely different street over a km away from BFLC. It goes between Chiswick High Rd and Acton Lane.

Michael Robinson ● 41d

Chiswick is not the centre of the universe you know. Brentford & Isleworth have a combined population of 40,000 or so, plenty to sustain an arts centre. It's a pain for us to get to Chiswick on the bus, and impossible to park.

Sue Lewis ● 41d

Re your last sentence, it may well be that people who live in W4 are more likely to 'engage'. I'll be doing so, though, and I'm TW8. I'm sure there must be a fair amount of 'passing trade' at that centre, at least back in the day. It's such a narrow neck of land between Richmond and Ealing at that point. There are facilities other than the family 'play pen' and it's a fair bet that users of those facilities come from all over.

Anne England ● 42d

"I don't know what would lead you to think that the largest no. of visitors come from W4"When my children were younger we used to go there regularly and we used to see a significant number of familiar faces from the area.Also the largest proportion of family homes within walking distance of the centre are in the W4 postcode area.But you are right - who knows for sure but I'd be willing to bet if they publish the postcodes of the people who respond to the consultation W4 will come out on top.

Anita Blake ● 42d

BFLC is on Chiswick Road, the short stretch of road between Kew Bridge and Chiswick Roundabout, not Chiswick High Road. I don't know what would lead you to think that the largest no. of visitors come from W4 - who knows? One thing for sure is that while I largely view the leisure pool as a giant play pen, it is extremely popular with families, particularly at the weekend. It is also appreciated by those with bad knees and poor mobility who can walk into the pool which goes from shallow to deep instead of negotiating the ladders at the side. I would imagine people come from quite a wide area, including out of borough, for this pool in particular.

Anne England ● 42d

Brentford Fountain Leisure Centre. Another dilapidated and unsanitary dump that most people will be glad to see the back of. These are rather limp sticks Chiswick Conservatives are picking up to beat the Council with.

Paul Campbell ● 42d

Richard, that seems a bit harsh on Jeremy.It looks like Brentford is set to lose another community asset with the closure of the Fountain Leisure Centre (I say Brentford but it is actually on Chiswick High Road and I'd guess that the largest number of visitors come from W4).As they say to lose one my be unfortunate but two looks like carelessness. Although the council says it will be replaced, it is hard to argue against Jeremy's points about the challenges of trying to get community assets paid for by housing developments particularly when affordable units are required as well. One point he doesn't mention is the glut of flats in Brentford at the moment. There is no point in trying to developers to pay for nice things if they can't sell the units they build.

Anita Blake ● 42d

"I’m saying you’re a tedious and clueless bore"Takes one to know one.

Richard Greenhough ● 42d

I know you like to tell yourself this because somebody who is as consistently wrong as you has had to develop such a defence mechanism over the course of your life as the truth would be difficult for your ego to process.

Paul Campbell ● 42d

Paul, you must know by now the satisfaction I take when you become abusive because I know it means my argument is sound.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 42d

I’m saying you’re a tedious and clueless bore

Paul Campbell ● 42d

A Chiswick-centric view is perhaps to be expected on a Chiswick-centric forum but, as so often, you are misrepresenting what I and others have said.Firstly, a point of information - Hounslow will not be funding a new arts centre even in Brentford or Chiswick. Whatever is built will be paid for by the developer as a condition of planning approval.Secondly, nobody in Chiswick is demanding an arts centre that they can drive to. People coming from W4 can cycle or take the bus to Brentford. The point is that better public transport links and parking availability would make an arts centre more viable as it would attract an audience from across a wider area of London.The best solution here is that the existing twin scheme can be revived and the plans already approved are implemented. However, how likely is this to happen? Neither the main developer or any housing association partner now appear willing to proceed with the scheme. I don't believe it is possible to just ditch the affordable housing requirement as was done with the stadium development and say that the arts centre meets the developers planning gain obligations so it appears the current proposals are dead in the water and it is unlikely that a revised scheme would get over the obstacles that have thwarted the current one.If this is the case then what should the attitude of the council be if the developer of the Chiswick Post Office site says we will provide you with a 250 seat community theatre in return for a waiver of the requirement to make some of the flats affordable?Are you seriously saying that if Brentford doesn't get an arts centre then Chiswick can't have one either?

Jeremy Parkinson ● 42d

Obvious beyond obvious,Paul.

Keith Iddon ● 43d

The Chiswick-centric view has really come out on this thread with the OP’s vain and futile push to move Council funding for arts to Chiswick at the expense of Brentford. That is never going to happen. But what’s worse is to see how little people realise what is happening in Brentford. Curran’s (rip) vision is being realised. Brentford is happening and it is filling with young people and really great stuff in general. It doesn’t require either the approval or custom of old Chiswick crusties who can’t figure out or can’t be bothered to get anywhere without their car.

Paul Campbell ● 43d

I remember Waterman's from when it first opened in 1984 and used to host gigs and had jazz on Sunday afternoons.I saw Hugh Cornwell performing there with his band just after he had left The Stranglers,and there were some pretty good discos on sometimes.It had to compete with The Red Lion,which was a famous music venue and directly opposite,where the dreadful drive in McDonald's now pollutes the space.The place suffered after the restaurant took over most of the space imo,the food was more varied before that and catered for wider tastes.

Keith Iddon ● 43d

As far as I am aware the conditionality of the two developments remains in place and one of the development partners remains on board. The challenge at the moment is to find a affordable housing sector developer to join the consortium. As for the programme at the old Watermans, I would agree that it was deficient. I don't think I ever went to a non-cinema event at the centre while I've visited the Tabard, the Lyric, the Bush and the Orange Tree many times over the last decade.That particular issue may solve itself as the Hounslow Arts Trust appears to have annoyed the council over the way in which it handled the closure so possibly won't be the entity running the cultural programme of the new venue.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 43d

We were 'assured' by local councillors that building a new art's centre was part of the conditions of the council approving the rest of the development.So much blah blib blab...

Keith Iddon ● 44d

Shoving the Waterman’s into Chiswick isn’t the solution. A proper programme of theatre, music and events is what’s really needed. The Houndlow Arts Trust abandoned any pretense of running a decent and widely appealing offer years ago. They couldn’t even be bothered to advertise some productions on the website.What we also know is the will to build any form of arts centre is conspicuously lacking with most developers. No profit there for them.

Simon Hayes ● 44d

Afaik the proposed site is still the old police station.A 2 minute walk from the station,if you walk at a normal pace.It's about 225 yds.

Keith Iddon ● 44d

The proposed site is over a third of a mile away from the station which means the journey would have to be completed at six minute mile pace to be done in two minutes. It has been a few years since I've been able to manage that but others may find it doable.Just to clarify, I am not disputing that there is a train station reasonably near the site, just that a tube station is probably more likely to attract an audience from outside the immediate area. I'm struggling to think of one theatre in London which is not within walking distance of a tube station.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 44d

So the HALF ACRE MUSIC HALLmight happen after all.This fictional venue was much featured òn the Brentford Forum some 10 years ago!

Jim Lawes ● 44d

From Brentford Railway Staion to the proposed site is a 2 minute walk and there is a bus stop directly outside and another about a minute's walk away.

Keith Iddon ● 44d

The number of people likely to travel via the South Western network as opposed to the tube is relatively small.I'm not saying the Brentford location is in the back of beyond but the public transport links are not the best and there is a lack of parking. The Chiswick location has ample free parking after 7pm and that could really be boosted if Sainsbury's could be persuaded to allow longer parking times at night.Cllr Shaheen has made an unambiguous commitment to an arts centre being located in Brentford. However, there are many question marks over viability and, while the borough is saying it is going facilitate its construction, it is not going to provide funding on an ongoing basis. A Chiswick theatre doesn't necessarily rule out a Brentford theatre but the town centre 'vision' for Chiswick sees a community venue of some sort at the Post Office site and a theatre would seem to be the most obvious option. It would be a real shame if the council felt it couldn't get behind this project because it had to build a Brentford theatre first and, given the practicalities, that means no theatres at all.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 44d

Google Maps says it's a 9 minute walk from Brentford railway station to the proposed Half Acre site (with the option of a bus down if you must).

Anne England ● 45d

The Lyric is probably a division or two above anything that could be built in Chiswick or Brentford. It has 550 seats with another 100 in the studio.The Half Acre site design was for 250 seats which compares to 180 in the Bush Theatre and the Orange Tree. Somewhere in that range is probably what you would fit into the ground floor of a Heathfield Terrace Post Office redevelopment. Hammersmith and Fulham probably wouldn't feel that any mutual discount was reciprocal.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 45d

The Lyric Hammersmith is probably a good template. It also suggests that good public transport links are key.If a publicly funded theatre was to be opened in Chiswick, perhaps it would enable a reciprocal agreement with H&F for discounted tickets for borough residents. This would benefit those living in the west of Hounslow Borough but not Ealing borough residents like me who live in a desert in terms of publicly funded arts.

Mark Evans ● 45d

I agree but if housing associations are having trouble balancing the books when they take on these 'affordable properties' imagine how much more difficult it must be for cash strapped local authorities to expand their social housing significantly. The regulatory environment is much more onerous than it was back in the day and maintenance and repair is already a challenge.Switching back to the Watermans, it is worth noting that the company which owns the Ealing Project cinema has gone under this week. A business model for an arts centre based on revenue from showing films is probably not workable anymore. One model that might still work is a theatre that mixes mainstream productions with ones that cater to diversity of the borough - a bit like the Lyric Hammersmith does. Combine this with a high value residential development for market sale you might just have the capital to build and the revenue to sustain a community theatre. It is far more likely that this concept would work in Chiswick rather than anywhere else in the borough.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 46d

We all know that the real answer is to build more social housing, as was done in such quantities in times gone by. All the various schemes for ‘affordables’, ‘share to buy (?)’ and ‘London Living Rent’ are poor value distractions and do little to provide homes for those who most need them. It will be interesting to see how Angela Rayner’s wide-ranging house building promises/pledges/proposals will make a difference.

Peter Evans ● 46d

Councillor Shaheen has subsequently clarified his comments to say that he wasn't referring to LGL but Peabody, the Housing Association who are the registered provider for the scheme for the affordable housing part. This highlights that this model of development is breaking down with Housing Associations in London not willing to take on section 106 properties because of the increased costs and responsibilities of managing them.The easiest solution here would just be to waive the requirement to have any affordable units (remember these are discount to market flats not social rent ones) and encourage LGL to proceed with all market sale units. Probably not feasible given the council and the mayor's obsession with targets but I can't see another way of getting this done.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 46d

Nobody is saying it is more important to have a theatre in Chiswick than in Brentford.However, if you are going to have the theatre built it will almost definitely have to be funded as part of a residential development and property prices in Chiswick are higher increasing the chances of a scheme being viable.Once built accessibility on public transport is a factor and due to the tube, for many in the west of the borough, a Chiswick venue might be easier to reach than one in Brentford particularly if a Piccadilly line stop is introduced.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 47d

Jeremy,why is it more important for Chiswick to have a theatre than it is for Brentford?The further west one travels in LB Hounslow,the more ethnically diverse it is.The theatre in Waterman's often held appropriate entertainments for all.I don't see how making it more difficult for more local people to get to is a good idea.

Keith Iddon ● 47d

Fair point about the location but viability is key so if it is a choice between a theatre in Chiswick and no theatre then geographic considerations should be secondary.The Half Acre scheme isn't likely to be viable on a standalone basis if a developer couldn't make it work with the kicker of pure profit from the luxury flats on the existing riverside site. Whether a standalone project in Chiswick would work is hard to say - there seems to be little transparency in how the Empire House scheme is selling which may indicate it is hard going.Also it probably needs to be accepted that a future arts centre needs to be built without a cinema. It was a valuable source of cash flow for Watermans but in recent years the Ealing Project, Chiswick Cinema and ActOne have opened with Everyman poised to come to Brentford itself. It isn't right that public funds (even notional ones gain from giving development rights for housing) should be used to create an entity will compete with similar businesses in the area that don't benefit from public funding.On the Lionel Road stadium, I've not heard of it being linked directly to the Brentford Leisure Centre development. The current site is too far away from the line between South Acton and Brentford to host a station. This is likely to be situated somewhere further round Capital Interchange Way possibly next to the stadium.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 47d

Over 30 years ago there was a good group of people using the 65 bus to come down from Ealing to the children's music and movement with Tamar Swade. Then we moved on to the occasional cinema when we could arrange babysitters and the always brilliant Christmas panto. It was a shame that that building wasn't better designed to give a good view of the river as there was so much to watch including the herons fishing and nesting and being mobbed by crows.

Philippa Bond ● 48d

I joined a cinema group at Waterman's after being widowed ten years ago. We would go 3 times a month on average, see a film and discuss it over dinner at the Guru. It was a Godsend for someone trying to rebuild her life and I made good friends whom I still see.Sadly, the centre never properly recovered from the lockdowns.

Susan Kelly ● 48d

Brentford is a better site than Chiswick imo partly because,as it's a facility for LB Hounslow residents,it is not on the outer reaches of the borough unlike Chiswick and would therefore be easier for other residents of the borough to get to.There is a proposal knocking about somewhere to build a tube station on the site of The Fountain Leisure Centre,but how likely it is that will happen debatable.

Keith Iddon ● 48d

Waterman's did, indeed, become a dump. The lack of a suitable arts programme aside, I really can't understand why a good number of buildings which have gone up in the past 40 years are now considered unfit for purpose. That includes Watermans and, seemingly, Brentford Fountain Leisure Centre.

Anne England ● 48d

It depends on a developer biting the bullet i.e. not political.I know plenty of people who used to come down to Brentford from Ealing on the 65, for example and those from Isleworth/Hounslow way are much more likely to arrive in Brentford by bus or, indeed, bike. Then there is the ever expanding Brentford population.

Anne England ● 48d

There are more reasons for why the Watermans was not a draw for people living further afield than the lack of a tube station in Brentford. It was a dilapidated dump with a programme that was not particularly appealing to a wider demographic. The younger local Conservative Councillors and candidate for MP who kicked up such a fuss about its closing admitted to never having gone there!

Paul Campbell ● 48d

Good tube links outweigh bus routes serving the venue because they increase to area from which people are likely to visit. I did get the bus to Watermans sometimes but I doubt people would travel from much further than Chiswick this way very often. About half the audience seem to be from W4 judging by familiar faces I would see there.My point is that if the objective is to have a borough arts venue and the choice was between a purpose built site at Brentford Police Station or the Chiswick Post Office, the rational one would be the latter. I'll concede it is unlikely to happen for political reasons.

Anita Blake ● 48d

There are plenty of buses which stop near if not at the proposed site of the proposed new Waterman's - E2, E8, 195, 235, 237 and 267. The 65 stops a short walk away and there is also Brentford railway station a short walk away.The population of Brentford itself is growing so audience numbers shouldn't be a problem.

Anne England ● 49d

Because you will be taking away a long established part of Brentford life plus the fact that it's the only community entrertainment facility in the parish.The swimming pool went years ago,the Fountain Leisure Centre is set for closure and the land would be cheaper than Chiswick and easier for many to get to as well.

Keith Iddon ● 49d

Why does the Arts Centre have to be in Brentford? I used to go to the Watermans from time to time but it was either a short drive or a quick bus journey but tricky to get to for people from other parts of London. This probably had something to do with its demise. The proposed Half Acre site is no easier to get to and offers no parking so will struggle to attract audiences.The Post Office site on Heathfield Terrace is likely to be developed in the next few years and that would have better public transport links and be much less dependent on public funds to pay for it. Couldn't a 300-500 seat theatre be accommodated on the site?

Anita Blake ● 49d