Forum Topic

Starmer again

Does anyone think he is right on his stance on Israel - I am appalled - I always thought he was a good man - I am afraid - no longer .

Helen Bamberger ● 82d96 Comments

Very true.

Steve Taylor ● 60d

This is great,well,that is until nigel turns up,so you can stop the video on 56 secs

Julian Pavey ● 60d

“More people have arrived in the UK this year after crossing the English Channel in small boats than over the whole of 2023, according to Government figures.Some 29,578 migrants have made the journey since January, up on last year’s annual total of 29,437.This is 12% higher than the 26,501 recorded this time last year”

Steve Taylor ● 61d

Richard is right Hamas has brought this on to its own brother/sisters, I can not believe that Hamas haven’t seen the horrendous outcome/ suffering for their one people and released the hostages as part of a peace deal. What is happening in Gaza and Lebanon is horrific but equally Hamas with the full knowledge of Hezbollah did the most evil act to kick this all off. That’s doesn’t make it right for Isreal but given the appalling act along with Irans support wanting to wide Isreal off the map I totally understand the fear Isreal has so attack. Look at Russia they attacked and Ukraine defended it doesn’t work, Isreal is surrounded by historical hatred from all sides, Jordan being neutral. Hamas is evil and they are totally responsible for killing their own people.

Jayne Thorburn ● 69d

"That's as clear an expression of prejudice against Palestinians as one might expect from someone prepared to justify the current Israeli horror show."No, it is an expression of prejudice against terrorists from Hamas, Islamic State and Hezbollah. The current suffering of Palestinians is a direct result of the actions of Hamas.

Richard Greenhough ● 69d

You appear to be confused etween Islamic State and Hamas. The young woman was enslaved as a girl by IS. Her "owner" may have been a Hamas member, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Hamas members in general behave similarly. "It does highlight the sort of people Israel is up against". That's as clear an expression of prejudice against Palestinians as one might expect from someone prepared to justify the current Israeli horror show.

Robert Fish ● 69d

If Hamas released the remaining hostages, then Israel's raison d'etre for attacking Gaza would be gone, and the pressure on them from their Western allies to stop the fighting would be much greater. Hamas' refusal to do so simply prolongs the conflict. Hamas and their ilk attempted genocide against the Yazidi people, and that poor woman who was taken to Gaza and used as a sex slave serves as a reminder of that atrocity. Two wrongs don't make a right, but it does highlight the sort of people Israel is up against.

Richard Greenhough ● 69d

Yes, I am offended by the fact that Hamas have been holding innocent hostages in captivity for over a year. But ask yourself why this is. No hostages have been released for many months because every time a ceasefire deal involving the release of hostages appears to be close, Netanyahu finds some excuse for backing out. Hamas cynically, and mistakenly, see the hostages as a bargaining point - mistakenly, because the reality is that Netanyahu doesn't give a damn about the hostages. His overriding concern is his own survival as Prime Minister, and his avoidance of criminal prosecution as long as he remains in power. I suspect that, if by some miracle Hamas release the remaining hostages, Netanyahu will find another excuse for his devastation of Gaza, and for continuing to wage war against Lebanon. Perpetual war is his escape route.The Hamas atrocity of 7th October last year was obscene. But they are a terrorist organisation, and it's not wholly unsurprising that they might resort to such violence. But Israel claims to be the only democratic state in the region, and we might justifiably expect them to have higher standards than a bunch of terrorists. Alas, the Israeli government appears to be just as depraved as Hamas. Their actions in Gaza can only be descibed as genocide. Not only have they killed over 42,000 inhabitants of Gaza, but they quite clearly intend to make the strip uninhabitable, through destruction of buildings and medical facilities, deprivation of food, water and medical supplies and obliging the population to relocate many times over, without providing safe corridors for them to do so. It is nothing less than genocide. If there were doubts initially about Israeli intentions, it's now abundantly clear that their purpose is to make unfortunate Gazans, who have no agency over Hamas, pay for the great sin of 7th October.Finally, I did see the news of the release of the Yazidi woman held as a sex-slave. Are you seriously suggesting that there is equivalence of offence between this isolated example of sex slavery (perhaps there are other cases, but we know nothing about them) and the wholesale slaughter of innocents by the IDF? When individuals do things like this, does that somehow justify making the entire population of Gaza suffer?

Robert Fish ● 69d

Hamas must release the hostages. Israel will then have no ‘excuse’ to continue the murders

Steve Taylor ● 70d

"Aren't you offended by the starvation tactics employed in Gaza?"Aren't you offended that Hamas have been holding innocent hostages in captivity for over a year ? Did you see the piece about the Yazidi woman who was held in Gaza by Hamas as a sex-slave ?

Richard Greenhough ● 70d

Robert, they have made no attempt to release hostages or make any moveto help towards peace, of course it's horrific.

Janice Evans ● 70d

What does the runt mayor think of Starmer’s stand?

Steve Taylor ● 70d

Who's currently doing the suffering, Dennis? The Israelis, or the people of Gaza, innocent Lebanese civilians and Palestinians in the West Bank? We may have been a staunch ally to Israel when it was threatened by its Arab neighbours, but now that it's militarily the dominant force in the region, and has become a monstrous bully, isn't it time to revise our attitude towards it? Aren't you offended by the starvation tactics employed in Gaza?

Robert Fish ● 70d

Agree Denis.

Janice Evans ● 70d

"we are Israel's strongest ally, "Speak for yourself, don't include us all.

James Roy ● 70d

It has nothing to do with cowardice. Along with America we are Israel's strongest ally, and have no desire to see that country suffer under fire from surrounding countries, including Iran and several terrorist groups.Sir Keir recognizes this, but not of course David Lammy.

Denis I. Fox ● 70d

Because he’s dim

Steve Taylor ● 70d

I know Starmer's a bit dim, to put it mildly, but why does he keep calling Rishi Sunak 'Prime Minister'?

Brian Coyle ● 70d

Starmer is too cowardly to impose sanctions on Israel

Steve Taylor ● 71d

So far Labour talk about their actions are super dubious, who thought removing the WFA for all pensions other than on state pension is a good idea just shocking. HMRC will have data on all pensioners who claim state plus have a second pension. So a kinder and fairer policy would be to say all pensioners earning over say 40K or 50K, RR didn’t think this one through so let’s pray that she has learnt a very hard and obvious lesson when it comes to higher taxes for whom. A lot goes on behind the scenes that we should not know about Robert don’t take anything on face value particularly when it comes to security.

Jayne Thorburn ● 71d

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy435dx0jpkoIn my previous criticism of Starmer, I suggested that the Conservative government would have been even worse, inasmuch as they would have opposed the ICC arrest warrant for Netanyahu. However, today's report from the BBC suggests that David Cameron as Foreign Secretary was planning to sanction the two most aggressive illegal settlement supporters in Netanyahu's cabinet, Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir. Note that the sanctions imposed by the Labour government today on seven organisations supporting illegal settlers do not extend to these individuals.

Robert Fish ● 71d

The foreign aid goes to corrupt regimes and much of it ends up in Swiss Bank accounts.

Steve Taylor ● 71d

They could start with an in depth look at Overseas Aid, currently around £14 billion pa. Where, to what and who exactly does all this money go? Can anybody tell me? I can't find any definitive answers or figures. Every single penny should be accounted for and made public. 

Brian Coyle ● 71d

Rishi did warn everyone as I said before if they don't listen they have to accept it and learn a hard lesson in the meantime.

Janice Evans ● 72d

Taxing wealth will bring in less tax than they already get that lesson was learnt decades ago because those at the top will change their behaviour. First they need to stop wastage of our money and focus on upping productivity when they give above inflation pay rises to the train drivers etc. then a small so 1% increase on VAT so spread the load, consider tax breaks on pensions so a standard rate of say 20% so higher earners lose out if we want to attack this group of top rate tax payers. It really depends on how much they want to rob companies with increased employer tax if we are talking 1% shouldn’t do too much damage but if a big hike definitely anti business and will cost jobs. The UK is already the highest tax for 70 years so they are collecting trillions spend it wisely which so far they have no policies to address. They need to stay very balanced and not attack those with broad shoulders whoever they are probably people earning over 50K.

Jayne Thorburn ● 72d

It's easy to criticise. What are the alternatives to this "tax on jobs"?Should they tax the employees? If not, how about a wealth tax or an increase in CGT? Any other ideas for making up the fiscal deficit?Or to hell with balancing the books, and how about borrowing for both capital and current expenditure? Or, if none of the above meets with your approval, should they simply let public services continue to waste away?

Robert Fish ● 72d

He gave the definite impression in his interview this morning on BBC Breakfast that we can expect Employers National Insurance contributions to be increased in the budget. Don't they realise that, by increasing the costs of employing someone, this is a tax on jobs and is likely to discourage employers from taking on more staff ?

Richard Greenhough ● 72d

So what has been the London Mayor’s reaction to Starmer refusing to sign the letter of condemnation of the Persona non grata order issued against the UN Secretary General?

Steve Taylor ● 72d

Starmer won’t condemn Israel.

Steve Taylor ● 72d

So what was in those sausages - Starmer's Secret Ingredients?

Brian Coyle ● 73d

He also lived on baked sausages and lived to 94.

Janice Evans ● 73d

I had a boss who looked just like that, he was very wealthy and bought hisclothes from charity shops, probably why he looked like that.

Janice Evans ● 73d

😂😂😂😂 brillant 😂😂😂

Jayne Thorburn ● 73d

"The one thing that seems to run through this 'discussion' is how short some people's memories are. That is not to say that there haven't been some major hiccups - but really?"🎶 Most people's memories are short, they have only been in for 100 days and it's constant.✔️ If the front bench were up in the dock for fraud after lying to the public, they would likely claim it was just a major hiccup and get bail from some wealthy donor as the bank account has a 22 million black hole. 😁 You know PMs tend to age badly? Starmer when it all goes badly wrong😁

Julian Pavey ● 73d

That’s was my point non of them seem to understand anything about business, education, transport, health the list goes on. Truly scary they are proving to be even more incompetent than anyone thought possible. Most of these investment deals would have been agreed month or years ago and Labour appear to be destroying what has been given to them on a plate that is truly surreal you have to work hard to be as bad as this crew.

Jayne Thorburn ● 73d

More importantly is why the most successful businessman in the world has not been invited to the Investment summit. They are such hypocrites. If they are so anti him why do they all use Twitter X  every day to spew their nonsense. First class hypocrisy and a Business Secretary who doesn’t understand business!

Steve Taylor ● 73d

Keir comes across as a bunny in the headlights, on one hand I feel sad for him, he is surrounded by juveniles who have zero understanding of economics, balance, leadership skills, vision but on the other he picked them. They really are not fit for government.

Jayne Thorburn ● 74d

The UK refuses to join more than a hundred other countries in signing a letter of support for the UN Secretary General after Israel declared him persona non grata. Another example of Starmer's timidity and unwillingness to distance us from the appalling Biden!

Robert Fish ● 74d

https://youtu.be/DsR4Nx-ELgc?si=pH2kJDYy30qnCSrA

Steve Taylor ● 78d

'The press are stating pensions are in the firing line.'Which 'press' do you read? Express, Torygraph, Mail - Sun? If you believe what they say - well, you'll believe anything.

Vanessa Smith ● 79d

😂😂😂 so no offers 😂😂😂 so funny Julian, says it all none of them would survive in the real world there are no privileges due to being an MP and freebies 😂😂😂

Jayne Thorburn ● 79d

A brilliant impersonation of our Deputy Prime minister, who cost the taxpayer £68k to look as good as this.Make your own mind up.

Denis I. Fox ● 79d

Latest instalment

Julian Pavey ● 79d

Name one you would employ?

Jayne Thorburn ● 79d

Nigel is laughing his head off. With the Tories still infighting and Labour making such blunders and Lib Dem’s just a bunch of buffoons, voters will be running to Reform!!  It’s hard to believe that Labour could stuff things up so quickly. We have seen them do it with Local Authorities because there are so many incompetent Labour Councillors but one would have thought there would be a better quality of people in central government.

Steve Taylor ● 79d

Not me,i take it you have to say such.

Julian Pavey ● 79d

Such histrionics. You should take to the stage, Jayne!

Robert Fish ● 79d

It’s scary in a few short weeks the damage Labour have done it can only get worse with them.

Jayne Thorburn ● 79d

I forgot to add ‘Goodbye Gibraltar and Forget the Falkland! to our right wing wind-up headlines collection.

Peter Evans ● 79d

Not forgetting the Chagos Islands.Q: "Chinese encroachment"A: He said in the house this evening "Mauritius is not an allie of china,they are an allie of india and not part of the belt and road project in Africa" "Liu Yuxi said that Mauritius is an important cooperative partner of China in Africa. Under the strategic guidance of the leaders of the two countries, China-Mauritius relations have maintained sound momentum of development" You can look up more. DL is a lier in saying they are nnot a chinese allie and is swerving the question directy put to him to save as the chinese say "face" This is anotherstory that is going to grow bythe weeks and dog them yet more shenanigans.

Julian Pavey ● 79d

Seems to me like the blind are leading the short sighted.

Keith Iddon ● 79d

It doesn’t matter because yesterday we had the highest number of illegal immigrants arriving by boat so who cares if we lose thousands of high tax paying millionaires. Who cares if the salaries of public sector workers is increased above inflation and if the taxpayer contributes to their generous final salary pensions. We’re getting some of money back by screwing state pensioners with the WFP.

Steve Taylor ● 79d

You are so wrong it’s a question of balance and if the left wing get their way we are all doomed. We don’t need extreme in any direction just balance this government clearly doesn’t understand this simple goal, we are not a communist country. Whatever happened to people being able to be aspirational there will be no money for the NHS the way this lot are going on.

Jayne Thorburn ● 79d

So we need to encourage millionaires but restrict the pay of public sector workers? What a great country we’d be if the right wing press has its way, undermining every Labour proposal. ‘School VAT chaos predicted!’ ‘Spending plans will boost inflation!’ ‘Sloth not growth under Labour!’ ‘Labour minister wears a nice dress!’ ‘Starmer recruits/sacks weird woman civil servant!’  etc…

Peter Evans ● 79d

It doesn’t take a genius to work that out RR clearly doesn’t do her research, targeting the rich doesn’t work, we need successful people to invest in our country, create employment, not alienate them. So we are left with those in the middle who are already shouldering huge taxes expected to shoulder more for what…..all their policies will deliver less tax, apparently RR now gets it that VAT on education won’t bring in the funds she expected surprise, stopping the WFP wont save the funds she wants is she really that stupid? Thought Blair was in the background obviously not he did the opposite. RR and Keir haven’t got a clue how to lead and run a country, none of them have.

Jayne Thorburn ● 79d

Supposedly David Lammy gave up sovereignty over the Chagos Islands without even going to parliament first to let the house know the plans.Yet another fiasco and yet again supposedly we are going to pay money to as they sayfreshen it up.Well give it a few years and its friends china will be very much more in talks with China through the back door in the way only China approaches such matters

Julian Pavey ● 79d

Vanessa,there was plenty of naysaying about the Tories from me,and I think the point is we were all hoping for something a little better,not more of similar.Considering they have only been at the helm 3 months or so,there have been too many gaffs and controversies to think that much will be different.

Keith Iddon ● 79d

Are,yet again ?

Julian Pavey ● 79d

“ Those with the means to do so are quitting the UK at breakneck speed – and anticipated changes to UK tax law could accelerate the exodus, new research suggests. This year, the UK has lost more millionaires than any other country, except for the People’s Republic of China. According to data from Visual Capitalist, the UK will suffer a net loss of 9,500 millionaires in 2024. In the same period, Italy is set to score a net increase of 2,200 millionaires, while the UAE is expected to attract a whopping 6,700.With the UK’s new Labour government posed to scrap so-called non-dom status, thousands more millionaires are considering leaving the country, as per a September study by Oxford Economics. Although the reforms are designed to raise money for The Treasury, the study finds that by 2029/30, it will result in a net loss to the Exchequer of £900 million, as a result of emigration.”

Steve Taylor ● 79d

It was good to hear some honest  thoughts - Thankyou - we all have different views and I honestly didn’t want nasty things on this thread.

Helen Bamberger ● 79d

Vanessa Labour got in on change and that hasn’t happened they have made a real mess in just 12 weeks that is an achievement I guess 😂😂😂 so far they have shown no leadership, no maturity in public office, no smart creative solutions, just talking the country down which is the opposite of what they should be doing. So more tax rises in the cards, huge pay rises which fuels inflation which isn’t good for anyone employed or otherwise. There are so many tax levers already if the economy grows they are focussed on short term, short sighted strategy. The removal of pensioners WFA says it all. The press are stating pensions are in the firing line. What planet are these people on we need to encourage people to save into pensions so they can look after themselves once retired reducing the pressure on public purse not attacking them.

Jayne Thorburn ● 79d

The one thing that seems to run through this 'discussion' is how short some people's memories are. That is not to say that there haven't been some major hiccups - but really? Have the last fourteen years of constantly changing P.M.s, minsters, personnel, lies, cover-ups, favours for mates, expenses scandals and on and on so quickly been forgotten? I do not recall all you naysayers and our mainly right-wing media so gleefully picking holes when we had a Tory government sticking their many noses in the trough. Hypocrisy doesn't even come close.

Vanessa Smith ● 79d

They have had 14 years to prepare yet they still make a total dogs breakfast of it in less than 100 days. Pathetic. And things are on schedule to get worse. Much worse.

Steve Taylor ● 80d

Keir really must take the lead and stick to his own decisions if things areto change for the better at all.

Janice Evans ● 80d

Thus far there are few signs of change - Great British Energy being one welcome initiative. The biggest obstacle to change will be if Rachel Reeves continues to cling to Tory fiscal rules. That is no way either to promote growth or to make good the depradations to public services. But there is far too much idle speculatiion about what the new government will do. Let's wait and see what's in the budget.

Robert Fish ● 80d

Don't forget that this government's mantra is "Change". What they omit to say is whether that is change for the better or worse.

Richard Greenhough ● 80d

Robert I pray you are right, the early days have sadly not demonstrated that they have any clue how to lead and govern. Thus far their decisions have been deemed as mistakes by you. There is no leadership, no vision other than negative they need to be careful not to take the electorate as fools. They had plenty of time to get their acts together there appears to be no maturity, states person like behaviour just a bunch of kids let out to play. Not what the country needs. It appears the unions have control that is terrifying we didn’t elect them.

Jayne Thorburn ● 80d

😅

Janice Evans ● 80d

Indeed so,Robert.'Things Can Only Get Better',remember?

Keith Iddon ● 80d

They have made several grave errors. The difficulty is that we have a PM and a host of ministers without previous ministerial experience. They should not have deferred a budget for more than three months. It just gives unnecessary scope for speculation in the meantime, and also allows items such as the winter fuel allowance mistake to dominate the agenda.The fact that you clearly rejoice in the missteps, as evidenced by your regular use of laughing emojis, says everything about you. Don't bank on things getting worse - you may be disappointed!

Robert Fish ● 80d

Love it Harriet Harman reported saying it is to be expected with a new government ‘missteps and clunkiness’ that’s a new phrase on me 😂😂😂😂 what a mess and Labour haven’t even started so think we need to put on our helmets for what is to come from a clearly chaotic and self serving Labour government. Utter incompetence would be my phrase.

Jayne Thorburn ● 80d

I suppose he feels he should support Israel as they supported Argentina in the Falklands war.

Nicholas Beard ● 80d

We are just talking war on this thread Brian.

Janice Evans ● 80d

"A fake blue plaque has been installed outside the supermarket where the lettuce that famously defeated Liz Truss was bought.The commemoration is yet more humiliation for the former prime minister, who only last 49 days in office.It has been erected at a Tesco in Walthamstow, east London, and says: “A lettuce purchased here in September 2022 lasted longer than prime minister Liz Truss.""

Steve Taylor ● 80d

Who else do you think the Government should be supporting?

Brian Coyle ● 80d

I probably mean overrule.

Janice Evans ● 81d

Should say Do think he is capable of making the right decision but hope he don't make the same mistake as Boris and trust others too much and let them override him.

Janice Evans ● 81d

I do trust him but worried he will be easily swayed by others.

Janice Evans ● 81d

Thank you, Paul.

Robert Fish ● 81d

Pigeon chess Robert. Just don’t play with the pigeons. You’re far better than them.

Paul Campbell ● 81d

Well you’re brave to trust Stammer!  Even his party faithful don’t trust him. Things will get worse.

Steve Taylor ● 81d

Some have said Putin is in the background so to speak, I'm going to trust Keir will keep us safe although someone did say we would be at war within 6 months if he got in, let's hope that person was very wrong.

Janice Evans ● 82d

Don't apologise, Helen. Mr Taylor has a habit of picking up on obiter dicta when he agrees with the main point you make, but is still eager to start a fight.With luck the moderators will be shocked to the core and ditch most of the thread. But it would be nice to know what other people think about Starmer and Israel. There has been a marked reluctance so far to comment on the situation in Gaza.

Robert Fish ● 82d

Totally agree Helen. Not sure what Fish is on but he is obviously on something because he is ranting about nothing. Clearly demented to get wound up about nothing. Not sure. Could be just an old age thing that gets him so wound up with the youth!  Bye bye Bob. Have a little sleep now.

Steve Taylor ● 82d

I honestly am so sorry I started this - I didn’t want to start such answers - I just wanted to hear what people thought about our gov. - that he is supporting Israel only. Such a really worrying time for all of us throughout the world… please stop getting at each other - we need to be together whatever our thoughts …

Helen Bamberger ● 82d

I hope the moderators see this post, because I'll say it only once: you are a petty, mean-spirited, malicious, disputatious arsehole. I'm weary of the ill-will that seems to be common currency on many threads, and I'm disappointed by moderators who are probably more offended by words such as "arsehole" than by constantly and wholly unjustifiably calling people liars.

Robert Fish ● 82d

I also cannot see where in my post I displayed a “ I displayed a visceral hatred of Labour” ? And if you were honest with yourself you would remember that my irritation with ‘UK government’ on the Israeli / Gaza murders etc goes way back to when Rishi was PM.

Steve Taylor ● 82d

There you go again Bob. I agreed 100% with your previous post and was about to tell you but then you had to follow it up with your bitchy little comment about what the Tories would or wouldn’t have done. You just can’t comprehend that the Tories are well and truly out and they don’t even have enough MPs to make an effective opposition. And now, to show that you are even more bitchy you have to refer to cyclists which is a totally different subject with many debatable issues for discussion. Why bring the little first world problem of arrogant cyclists into the very serious issue of the Middle East Wars where people are dying in tens of thousands and millions are now displaced. It’s exceedingly childish, Bob

Steve Taylor ● 82d

Trust you to get side-tracked in petty personal differences, when basically we both object strongly to Starmer's position on Israel. My objection is on moral grounds, whereas yours, I suspect, stems from a visceral hatred of Labour,  stronger even than your hatred of cyclists.

Robert Fish ● 82d

The above was for Robert who still bleats on about what the Tories wouldn’t have done.

Steve Taylor ● 82d

Forget what you THINK the Tories would have done. They were kicked out so get over it. We are where we are and Stammer has to make a stand. It is outrageous that Israel attacked Lebanon and murdered innocent people. Outrageous!!  Lammy should be expelling the Israeli Ambassador and keeping the Embassy closed until there is a ceasefire. There’s no point in having a diplomatic mission here when Israel has made it perfectly clear that this issue will never be resolved with diplomacy. They are intent on military aggression only. They WANT war and bloodshed. Nothing else will satisfy them. And they have no interest in the Israeli citizens being held hostage. They have turned their backs on them.

Steve Taylor ● 82d

Yes yes Robert - who can we trust anymore ???

Helen Bamberger ● 82d

The Tories would have been even worse. They would have opposed the IC warrant.

Robert Fish ● 82d

No, he is very, very wrong. With minor differences, he follows the US line, whch has achieved nothing so far and could yet lead to a major war in the Middle East. At least the UK hasn't objected to the requested IC warrant for Netanyahu, but I'm tired of hearing the mantra about Israel's right to self-defence. That "right" in reality is free licence afforded to Israel's overwhelming military supremacy to commit crimes of humanity against neighbouring populations. The brave, plucky little country has become a monstrous bully. Its arrogant behaviour and cruel indifference to the plight of neighbouring civilian populations (including Palestinians in the West Bank, for whom Israel, as the occupying power is responsible) will only perpetuate its security problems. Someone has to stand up and be counted, to try and stop this, but it doesn't look as if it will be Starmer.

Robert Fish ● 82d

Well Steve I meant what he had said that he and our country was on Israel’s side - not necessarily- what about the ordinary people in Lebanon … I am so sad what’s going on and I think this has become so so dangerous for us all.

Helen Bamberger ● 82d

Glad you know what his stance is. What is it?

Steve Taylor ● 82d