Forum Topic

How to ride Fulham to Brentford without traffic

Great little video from Jon Stone showing a route for cycling from Fulham to Brentford featuring all the excellent LTNs at the riverside in Fulham, Cycleway 9 from Hammersmith to Brentford with some interesting local history and a nod to the sense in removing car parking to make high streets more vibrant as he passes The Antiques Market in The Old Marketplace.  And wisely calling for Hounslow Council to install a bus gate on Wellesley Road.  Enjoy ☺️

Paul Campbell ● 95d43 Comments

Nobody reads your nonsense  Robinson. Least of all Al, who made it perfectly clear he was done with you. Are you too much of a moron to understand English?

Steve Taylor ● 89d

Al, you are talking rubbish about "consumer" versions of GPS data.Strava gets its data from GPS hardware on a phone or a dedicated device like a Garmin.  There aren't "consumer" and "commercial" versions of an iPhone or Garmin - they produce the same GPS data for all applications.  If I look at the GPS trace of a ride on another application like RideWithGPS, it also shows the trace in the middle of CHR even though I was in the bike lane.  So as I said, you cannot rely on the GPS traces to tell the difference between the bike lane and roadway.Yes, Strava will sell data to businesses and that will have information like the origin, destination, time of day of a ride and perhaps anonymised information about the user, but Strava doesn't get more accurate GPS data than anyone else using a phone or Garmin.You keep on ignoring that there are 4 cameras along CHR that CAN tell the difference between roadway and cycleway and the data from these totally contradict your claim.  The data is publicly available, eg. https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-2473-2324I also quoted data from the A4 that was in annual traffic surveys done by the DfT.  Again, you can get this at:https://roadtraffic.dft.gov.uk/manualcountpoints/46121You can see there are daily counts of 37 in 2020 and 33 in 2021 although that did increase to just over 600 in 2022 and 2023.  However the numbers cycling on the A4 are tiny compared to CHR.And what is this nonsense about "reduction in collisions being down to the cycle lane when the speed limit was reduced to 20mph at the same time.".I mean really Al, why are you coming up with this rubbish? I've just looked at google street view and can see a road sign changed from 30mph to 20mph sometime between April 2018 and July 2019 so the CHR speed limit was not changed "at the same time".It strikes me that you are the person who is refusing to accept reality. You come up with nonsense about GPS locations being more accurate for Strava than any other applications, nonsense about speed limits and ignore the results of traffic surveys because they show your preference for the A4 is only shared by a small minority of people.

Michael Robinson ● 89d

“ It's not worth trying to discuss these things with you.”That’s right. Michael still hasn’t corrected or apologised for his lie about buses over Hammersmith Bridge because it doesn’t suit his warped agenda. Don’t expect his figures to be true.

Steve Taylor ● 89d

Al you are not in the middle. You are a long term opponent of local cycle lanes and you are as extreme as the people you would like to consider yourself superior to in your claims that more people cycle on Chiswick High Road than in the cycle lane. That’s just absolute rubbish.

Paul Campbell ● 89d

You would hope that the borough representative of the London Cycling Campaign, whose remit is to promote cycling within LBH, could at least get the facts right.

N V Brooks ● 89d

Michael, their location is accurate enough to tell the difference.  There were two very definite distinct routes on the heatmap.  One was very clearly in the cycle lane, and one on the road.The one you posted is the consumer version, not the version that they sell to commercial customers who pay money.This is why I haven't been on here for ages.  It's not worth discussing with people who refuse to accept reality (on both sides of the argument), and who use incorrect figures, or incorrectly interpreted figures - like your presentation of the reduction in collisions being down to the cycle lane when the speed limit was reduced to 20mph at the same time.Ages ago, you also quoted incorrect figures about the use of the A4 path.  From memory, you said something like it being in the range of tens of people per day.  The next week I had to pick something up in the car from Hammersmith.  I saw 10 cyclists in the cycle lane in the 5 minutes or so it took to drive from Hammersmith to Chiswick.  That was at 8:30 pm in the evening.  The numbers you were quoting bore no relation to reality.It's not worth trying to discuss these things with you.  To be fair, some of the anti-cycling brigade are even worse, which is why most people stay out of these discussions, and its the same 6 or 7 people posting the same stuff over and over again.You aren't helping your case with the people in the middle who just see you dodging questions, and refusing to acknowledge problems.  What you are doing is often counter-productive.  Anyway, I've had enough, and I'll leave you and the usual suspects to it.

Al Webber ● 89d

I see cars in this video 🙊

Janice Evans ● 91d

“ The fact that I was cycling in the bike lane but Strava thinks that I was in the road is evidence that you cannot rely on Strava to tell the difference because of……………”Blah blah blah. Oh so boring. Get a life man.

Steve Taylor ● 92d

Al,The fact that I was cycling in the bike lane but Strava thinks that I was in the road is evidence that you cannot rely on Strava to tell the difference because of GPS accuracy limitations. I can show you the Strava data for other parts of the journey where it thinks that I am cycling through a building beside the road. Claims of “more detailed” data are meaningless because the GPS data isn’t accurate enough to start with. Strava doesn’t have any more accurate data than the data it gets from users and if the data it gets from me incorrectly shows me in the road rather than bike lane, that incorrect view will apply to lots of other users as well.As I said, there are 4 survey locations along C9 using cameras than CAN tell the difference between cycleway and road and data from those demonstrates that your claim is nonsense. Anyone would only need to stand by C9 for 5 minutes to see your claim was nonsense as well.Of course the design is a compromise. All designs are compromises. Bike lanes on both sides of the road would require more space because two separate lanes take up more space than a single bidirectional lane because of 2 sets of kerbing and the width of the lanes. More space would mean losing more space from roadway and/or pavement and lanes on both sides of the road would double the construction costs.  If you think that there was lots of objections to the existing scheme, they would have been off the scale with lanes on both sides because of narrowed pavements and removal of more parking.Your views are a classic case of perfection being an enemy of the good and the large increase in usage demonstrates many people think that C9 is good. You can’t rely on Strava to tell the difference between cycleway and carriageway but you can rely on it to show just how few people use the A4, your preferred route, so that is good evidence your opinion isn’t shared by the vast majority.

Michael Robinson ● 92d

Yes and they see cycling as part of an integrated transport system unlike some backward thinking people in this country.

David Burke ● 92d

“ Roll on the German model of mandated use (lane provided+use road instead = fixed penalty) “Yep the Germans are masters at running transport systems. The Germans are logical and have common sense.

Steve Taylor ● 92d

Immaterial to the velophiles who won't use the £6.9 MILLION lane anyway as it's "too bendy" for the poor little dears to navigate.  Roll on the German model of mandated use (lane provided+use road instead = fixed penalty) in many areas.

N V Brooks ● 92d

It is a good cycle lane for the thousands of people using it every day. I always said that is the one metric that will show if it is a success. And it absolutely is. I also always said it was a compromise for motorists and deliveries to retain more of the road space. There would also be even more cycle lane phases at lights if we had unidirectional cycle lanes on both sides at the junctions of TGT and Goldhawk Road. Traffic would have to be held at both from turning across an eastbound cycle lane on the north side. And you'd have to remove the loading bays and add more bus stop bypasses on the north side of the High Road. You really do have a very short memory as all this has been explained to you before. Opinions don't really matter. The cycle numbers do and you have to be pretty deluded or never spend any time on the High Rd to claim that most bike journeys are on the road on Chiswick High Road. You certainly don't have any evidence to support your silly claim.

Paul Campbell ● 92d

The data I saw was far more detailed.  It was the data that is supplied to businesses.  I could probably get hold of it, but I might be breaching the terms and conditions if I shared it.  It definitely showed more journeys on the main carriageway.On another subject, your claim about the reduction in collisions justifying the cycle lane is disingenuous.  The cycle lane (in it's initial temporary form) was put in during the pandemic in 2020.However that was not the only major change.  The speed limit on Chiswick High Roads was reduced from 30mph to 20mph around the same time.  I just found a traffic notice for a consultation on it that closed in Jan 2020.Even if there is a reduction in collisions, the reduction in the speed limit will be a major factor - possibly the predominant factor. You can't claim all of the credit for the cycle lane.The cycle lane is better than what was there before.  We used to have paint on the road alongside parked cars in exactly the place where you would choose to cycle if you wanted to get doored.While it's better than what was there before, it's still a fudged compromise.  There should be a lane on each side of the road with traffic.  With the two way thing, there has to be a completely separate phase of the lights for the cycle lane, which is incredibly short, so it makes using the lane very, very, very slow.We have people like you and Paul on one side, who refuse to acknowledge that it is a compromise that isn't actually very good.  On the other side, we had the local Tories who were claiming that it would destroy the High Road.The truth is somewhere in between.  It hasn't destroyed the High Road, but it is not a good cycle lane.As I've said before, I normally avoid it.  I will use the A4 shared path, or use Bath Road if I need to go somewhere further North.

Al Webber ● 92d

“ Yes, car do jump the lights there due to the stupid TfL sequencing, but they are far from alone.”Yes but I would think that there is a 99% chance of car drivers receiving a penalty notice in the post if they go through a red light but cyclists jump red lights with impunity.

Steve Taylor ● 93d

Not seen it but I'm rarely out at that time of the morning. Before it became a political statement I used traffic lights on a bike like I have always (certainly not alone!) as I do when on foot, If nothing is in sight, I ignore a pedestrian red light. I remember causing dismay in Vienna doing the same, but now Vienna is more like the UK.And no, the problem at KB is not to do with the sequencing, though I do think is debatable. I agree with your analysis on the Boston Manor Road lights where I continue to engage with TfL.At KB it is always and only people coming down South Circular towards KB. I know the sequencing intimately. I await the pedestrian lights change. A couple seconds later the bike lights go green. I look right to see whether cars are stopping. Maybe once in 5 a car (or van) or two comes fast against the red. It's become part of the system for me and I avoid the risk. Probably not 100% but cycling or walking always has a bit of risk.

Guy Lambert ● 93d

“except when cars habitually jump the lights at Kew Bridge”Local residents have complained about the danger of taking children to nursery here because of drivers routinely jumping the red light and our local Councillor blamed it on Cycleway9.

Paul Campbell ● 93d

I took a look at how my rides appear on Strava. Apparently I was cycling down the middle of Chiswick High Road.

Michael Robinson ● 93d

Get the detail from the Strava stand and show us Al. Or did the person running it go to a different school so we wouldn’t know them?

Paul Campbell ● 93d

As I said, there are 4 sets of cameras along CHR and King St recording cyclists, motor vehicles, and even pedestrians in both directions along C9 and roadway and it isn’t even close. Over 90% of cyclists use C9.Did you look at the Strava data for the A4 to see how few people cycle there?

Michael Robinson ● 93d

Al, I fear I have overestimated your cycling abilities if you are struggling with steering your bike at those speeds in that cycle lane. I’m sorry it’s so hard for you.

Paul Campbell ● 93d

So Guy, how about the bikes which habitually jump the lights at Kew Bridge? Suggest you get there between 7.00 and 8.00, difficult not to see them. Yes, car do jump the lights there due to the stupid TfL sequencing, but they are far from alone.

N V Brooks ● 93d

It does record to that level of detail although I don't know if it's publically available at that level.  I saw it at a work event where Strava had a stand.I was interested in our local area, so I specifically asked the guy from Strava to look at Chiswick High Road.  He zoomed right in, and you could clearly see the difference between the cycle lane and the main carriageway.Strava doesn't represent all cyclists, but among Strava users, there were definitely more using the main carriageway than the cycle lane.

Al Webber ● 93d

Al,  the collision stats don’t care what you think and the large increase in numbers cycling on CHR since C9 was completed with reduction in collision rate means your opinions aren’t supported by the evidence.

Michael Robinson ● 93d

Ok so Al thinks it’s safer to use the road and take your chances with all the cars, buses, trucks and rely on their patience, goodwill and courtesy when there is an expensive dedicated cycle lane right next to you and Guy prefers to use the cycle track so that he will never again be knocked off his bike by a car. It’s seems like the jury is still out.

Steve Taylor ● 93d

Nonsense. Strava doesn’t record journeys to that level of detail.On the other hand, the survey cameras that TfL have at 4 locations along C9 can record that detail as the cameras are pointed at “count lines” covering the footpath, cycle lane and the roadway. Hourly data is available going back to 2021 and this shows that over 90% of cyclists use C9. The cameras also record motor traffic so it is possible to correlate the % of cyclists on C9 with volume of motor traffic and unsurprisingly, the heavier the motor traffic, the more cyclists use C9.You just need to visit CHR to see that the vast majority of people on bikes are using C9.But I suppose you wouldn’t know that because you are billy-no-mates cycling on your own along the A4 ;)

Michael Robinson ● 93d

Blimey, anything about cycling starts a storm about not much.I cycle from Brentford to Hammersmith, or Fulham most days. Usually out along the river and back along CHR and the near perfect C9. I will not be knocked off on Kew Bridge Road as I was a while ago, nor will the paramedic who helped me (about something else) at West Middlesex. She had been knocked down twice on her bike on her commute to Chiswick on Brentford High STreet/Kew Bridge Road and had been hospitalised on one occasion. As Richard says, each to his taste. The vast majority of people going through Chiswick use C9 (I know because I am on it more or less daily, though rarely at rush hour). The habit has not completely taken hold yet in Brentford (it has only been officially opened a week or so ago) but most people use the lane. I certainly do. I have never had the slightest concern, except when cars habitually jump the lights at Kew Bridge

Guy Lambert ● 93d

Michael, I saw some of that data (from Strava) a few weeks ago.  I had a look at Chiswick High Road.  There were more cyclists using the main carriageway than using the cycle lane in the section I looked at.

Al Webber ● 93d

That cycle lane is not safe at any reasonable speed.  Coming down the hill into Brentford, it veers all over the place.  Down that hill it's easy to do 15mph or so without even trying - just pootling along.  The way that lane is built, you are far safer on the road at that speed, where you can keep in a straight line, without all the swerving.The cars will also give way to you when you are on the road.  I know they are supposed to give way when you use the cycle lane, but a lot will not, and will pull in front of you.  You are also much more likely to left hooked by cars turning into side roads on the cycle lane.

Al Webber ● 93d

“That cycle lane is appalling.  I'll be on the road for large chunks of the route if I'm on my bike.”Totally agree but the problem is that the road is very narrow now so it’s dangerous for cyclists. There has already  been a cyclist fatality.  And of course the fact that  there is now a dedicated cycle lane does not endear cyclists to motorists when they cycle on the road so don’t expect any leeway.  You’ll only invite road rage, frustration and an unpleasant journey.

Steve Taylor ● 93d

Hi Al, it's been a while since your have had your periodic reminder of who protected cycle lanes are being built for so here it is again: not you or me but all the people who are not cycling on main roads because they are dangerous for them - as you've forgotten I will remind you again that this includes children, older people, people with disabilities, a lot of women, men too and also people with children or other stuff in slower moving cargo bikes. Vehicular cyclists lost this battle 20 years ago but occasionally a grizzled old vet pops up to have another go. Use the road as much as you like. Nobody is stopping you.

Paul Campbell ● 93d

I went through Brentford a week or two ago.  That cycle lane is appalling.  I'll be on the road for large chunks of the route if I'm on my bike.

Al Webber ● 93d

Chacun a son gout.

Richard Greenhough ● 94d

That route is still over a mile longer.  You must be bombing it if you think it takes the same time.  I try to avoid the A316 if at all possible. Horrible road both along it and crossing it.

Michael Robinson ● 94d

Also Richard, it is interesting that you think there isn't much difference in time between the 2 routes despite the riverside route being 70% longer.As I do log my rides, I checked my average speed along the C9 route and it was 11mph to Hammersmith, stopping at all lights.Can I therefore assume that your average speed along the riverside route is almost 20mph given you think it takes the same time? That is some going for someone of your age.  Chapeau!ps. I am certainly not disparaging the riverside route as I do use it quite often myself, when I have the time and want a change of scenery.  It is good to have a choice.

Michael Robinson ● 94d

Michael -  your route follows the river all the way round the bend. My route, as I have already said, cuts across from Pumping Station Road to Thames Road. Your route would be good if you are out for a scenic cycle ride; mine is good for commuting.

Richard Greenhough ● 94d

Richard, When I can, I like to have factual information rather than just making things up so before posting, I plotted the routes using a cycle route planning app to see what the difference was. Kew Bridge to Hammersmith gyratory via river: 4.88 miles Hammersmith gyratory to Kew Bridge via C9: 2.88 miles Difference: 2 miles You can play around with the detailed routes if you like but it won't make a significant difference.

Michael Robinson ● 94d

I'm happy that cyclists, even if far fewer in number, are using the traffic-calmed streets of the Old Chiswick and South Chiswick LTNs as well as Cycleway 9. This is what is supposed to happen as we build out London's cycle network.

Paul Campbell ● 95d

While I accept that it may be a little longer, I doubt if it is as much as two miles if you go via Pumping Station Road, Edensor Road and Burlington Lane, cutting through to Thames Road and onto Strand-on-the-Green. As there are far fewer traffic lights on that route, I doubt if there is actually much difference in travelling time between Hammersmith Bridge and Kew Bridge. Of course, if you are the type of cyclist who ignores red lights then Cycleway 9 is the route for you.

Richard Greenhough ● 95d

The route along the river is about 2 miles longer so while picturesque in parts, it is more suitable for people with some time on their hands. A 'heatmap' using data from cyclists logging their rides on GPS gives an indication of the relative popularity of routes in the area.  Despite what some people claim, few people cycle alongside the A4. The companies collecting this data sell it to transport authorities and while only a % of people cycling will be logging their rides, research has shown they are choosing similar routes to people not logging  rides.

Michael Robinson ● 95d

I still prefer to cycle from Hammersmith Bridge to Kew Bridge along the riverside route rather than along King Street, CHR and Wellesley Road.

Richard Greenhough ● 95d

Ha! Not my video Anne but thank you. I have taken some footage of the new C9 extension in Brentford though so watch this space ....

Paul Campbell ● 95d

Doh! I thought you were cycling at that rate to begin with ... Well done on the video.

Anne England ● 95d