Forum Topic

Please think of Gaza

At this special time of year for Christians, I can scarcely believe the combination of indifference to the plight of Gaza and the parochialism and meanness of spirit shown on the forum in the past 24 hours. Whilst Gaza is destroyed and several hundreds of lives are lost, local preoccupations seem to be either petty hatred of cyclists and the local authority which is supposedly in thrall to them, or an obsession with 'woke' culture. We are complicit in the 'genocide', as we remain silent whilst Biden and Sunak sit on their hands and do nothing to stop the slaughter. I say 'genocide' because, although there is no doubt that the Israeli actions in Gaza constitute the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular national, ethnic, racial or religious group, there may be some doubt as to whether the intention is to destroy that group, in whole or in part, or whether it is to kill sufficient members of that group to force them to disown Hamas. But either way the effect is tantamount to genocide.Does no-one care?

Robert Fish ● 131d139 Comments

Which channel please, Adrian?

Keith Iddon ● 1d

Sorry...just notided the heading.duh...

Keith Iddon ● 1d

Isobel Yeung investigates the conduct of the Israeli military in the West Bank.Tough viewing but well worth a look if you are interested in some insight to what is going on. Available on Freeview catchup

Adrian Irving ● 1d

Ah yes, plucky little Israel surrounded by hostile neighbours who want to wipe her off the face of the earth. A far cry from the reality of the arrogant, and much better armed, colonialist bully. Your knowledge of the 1956 hostilities is somewhat deficient. No-one attacked Israel. Israel invaded Sinai and the Gaza strip, and was joined in an attack on Egypt by France and Britain, in an attempt to seize control of the Suez Canal after Nasser's nationalisation of it. In the early days of his Presidency Nasser tried to reach peace with Israel and had worked to prevent cross-border Palestinian attacks. However, in February 1955 the Israelis conducted a raid on the Egyptian Army headquarters in Gaza (does that ring a bell - Damascus?) in retaliation for a Palestinian fedayeen attack that killed an Israeli civilian. In response Nasser started to permit further fedayeen attacks. But the aggressor in 1956 was most certainly Israel, and even then the Israelis had overwhelming forces which allowed them to be contemptuous of their neighbours. I'm surprised you didn't know this, Richard.

Robert Fish ● 11d

“ Wasn't yesterday the anniversary of the British army entering Bergen-Belsen?  Isn't the idea that this horror should never be forgotten and never repeated? ”Yes indeed, and it would seem that Israel has learnt nothing from this and are intent on continuing their abhorrent behaviour.

Steve Taylor ● 11d

😅

Janice Evans ● 11d

Truly excellent post Richard.Unfortunately it has fallen on deaf ears.

Denis Ian Fox ● 11d

"Then why do so many think the U.K can stop Israel or anyone for that matter.”Do they?  Isn't it more that the UK shouldn't condone all Israel's actions?Wasn't yesterday the anniversary of the British army entering Bergen-Belsen?  Isn't the idea that this horror should never be forgotten and never repeated?

Philippa Bond ● 11d

It's not the case that many people think the UK can stop Israel. The US clearly has much more leverage, as a result of the arms it supplies to Israel and the massive amount of aid it provides. But Biden continues to send arms to Israel. He is complicit in war crimes.

Robert Fish ● 11d

Unfortunately, asking Silly Steve to think is a lost cause.

Richard Greenhough ● 11d

Does that mean that we will no longer have the opportunity to learn from your deep knowledge of the peaceful intentions of Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and Iran, Mr Taylor?

Roger Talbot ● 11d

“ Then why do so many think the U.K can stop Israel or anyone for that matter.”They don’t. It’s a lost cause. Israel will continue to bully and kill innocent people. It’s a damaged nation. The apartheid regime had nothing on what Israel is now doing. Focus on Ukraine. It can still be saved.

Steve Taylor ● 11d

Once again, Silly Steve shows his ignorance. Israel was attacked by its neighbours in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973. None of those neighbours acted "reasonably" in that time, making it clear that their aim was to wipe Israel off the map. Since then, peace agreements have been reached with two of those neighbours, Egypt and Jordan, and Saudi Arabia was well on the way to progressing an agreement before the Hamas terrorist attacks last October. Iran, mostly acting through its proxies in Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Yemen, has continued to seek the obliteration of the state of Israel, and until there is regime change in Teheran, things are unlikely to change for the better. The suffering citizens of Gaza have no hope of improvement while the Hamas terrorists control the territory; they were regularly firing rockets into Israel long before they launched their murderous raid in October. If the Palestinians could install a leadership prepared to negotiate a two-state solution then the West would pressure Israel to negotiate towards that end.

Richard Greenhough ● 11d

Then why do so many think the U.K can stop Israel or anyone for that matter.

Janice Evans ● 11d

It’s 100% clear that Israel will never back down and try to make peace. The mindset prevents it. They have had 75 years to try to act reasonably but they won’t. It’s astounding especially after all the suffering of the Jews in WW2.  One would think there would be some understanding and compassion but we see only arrogance. Best to focus on helping Ukraine because it’s a waste of energy trying to understand the Israeli mentality. The abused became the abuser and nothing will change that.

Steve Taylor ● 12d

One thing which is clear for the world to see is that Silly Steve is becoming more incoherent and imbecilic by the day. Surely this old fool should now be forcibly removed from CW4.

Richard Greenhough ● 23d

One thing which is clear for the world to see is that Biden is becoming more incoherent and imbecilic by the day. Surely this old fool should now be forcibly removed from the White House.

Steve Taylor ● 23d

I think most people are able to work out what is really happening at the moment, Jayne.

Stewart Jones ● 29d

You should read First They Came by Pastor Martin Niemoller.

Philippa Bond ● 29d

You can’t simplify a very complex situation, none of us truly understand what is going on other than the extreme stories that leak out. There is a lot more going on from both sides

Jayne Thorburn ● 29d

No to all, Robert. The point I was making was that criticism by Biden and Cameron is sheer hypocrisy.

Roger Talbot ● 29d

Who took no notice or not enough notice of the information of the Watchers?  Isn't that what a lot of this is about?It is looking very like a re-run of the 1947 ethnic cleansing.

Philippa Bond ● 29d

Oh, and it’s a shame the Israeli intelligence, services, whether it be IDF or some other intelligence body failed to react to what was planned for October 7th, and didn’t manage to stop the slaughter of Israelis and taking of hostages there and then.

Andrew Jones ● 30d

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/10/im-so-scared-please-come-hind-rajab-six-found-dead-in-gaza-12-days-after-cry-for-helpIt was a long and terrifying wait for her as the last survivor in that car and the Red Crescent ambulance which had also been in touch with the IDF over their route to her rescue was also completely destroyed.

Philippa Bond ● 30d

Why is killing the aid workers unforgivable, while killing tens of thousands of children, innocent men and women (presumably) forgivable in your book?

Andrew Jones ● 30d

I think the big challenge is Hamas hide with families, schools, hospitals etc. plus of course they have this huge tunnel city so it is extremely difficult for the IDF to find them. In reality do they know who Hamas members are versus sympathisers. My guess is that the innocent Palestinians are too terrified not to hide Hamas members otherwise they get shot. It’s an appalling situation and the aid workers was unforgivable. According to the news IDF had intelligence that Hamas members were travelling in the convoy but changed their minds at the last minute. There needs to be much closer communication between aid and IDF.

Jayne Thorburn ● 30d

It was reported that Hamas had taken all the food and was why they had to go in.

Janice Evans ● 30d

Perhaps they do, however it puts to bed the lie that the policy of the IDF is trying to minimise civilian casualties. I have no doubt by the way that the reports of warnings to buildings that are about to be targeted are true, so I wouldn't say that the IDF aren't attempting (in some cases) to reduce innocent lives being lost.What is going to be the final ratio of innocent Palestinians killed by Israel in this conflict compared to the number of innocent Israelis slaughtered on Oct 7th? 100:1? 250:1?It is a collective punishment being enacted on the Palestinians by Israel, not too dissimilar to may incidents in WW2 (albeit on a longer timescale)

Andrew Jones ● 30d

Would you consider deliberate targeting of children by snipers as acceptable collateral damage? Or deliberate targeting of aid Vehicles? Is deliberate starvation of the civilian population merely collateral damage?

Robert Fish ● 30d

Every country at war accepts the deaths of innocent civilians as "collateral damage", Andrew, whether they're doling it out or on the receiving end. And I doubt that the IDF are enjoying the international criticism they're getting over their latest fiasco.And considering the deliberate war crimes and "accidents" in recent history committed by the Americans in Vietnam and Afghanistan and elsewhere and by the British in Malaya and Afghanistan and elsewhere, it hardly behoves Biden and our own poltroon Cameron to shed crocodile tears over what has been going on in Gaza.

Roger Talbot ● 30d

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes

Andrew Jones ● 31d

Yes, there have been so many horrors perpetrated since the death of that poor little girl, that I'd even forgotten about her. Thank you for reminding me, Philippa.

Robert Fish ● 31d

Thanks Julian.

Andrew Jones ● 31d

It was NOT started on 7 October!And what about the killing of Hind Rajab?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-juOt-N_Js&list=PL3ZQ5CpNulQlZ4gLLCiJptA85Ts4wVvSC&index=3

Philippa Bond ● 32d

Reply to S.Edwards.

David Burke ● 32d

Israel doesn't allow foreign journalists into Gaza yet you've got first hand knowledge of what's going on there.Pathetic excuse for a human being.

David Burke ● 32d

"Unlike Hamas the IDF do not target civilians." Tell that to the children shot by snipers in both Gaza and the West Bank. This isn't collateral damage from the pounding of Hamas. It is targeted, cold-blooded killing of juveniles.

Robert Fish ● 32d

"Neither the fascist enemy and its arrogant leadership... nor its supporters... can take their prisoners alive without an exchange and negotiation and meeting the demands of the resistance," Abu Obeida, spokesman for Hamas's armed wing, said in a televised broadcast, referring to the release of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel."We have no choice but to fight this barbaric occupier in every neighbourhood, street and alley," he said.Hamas demands"In the first 45-day phase, Hamas would release all remaining women and children, as well as older and sick men, in exchange for an unspecified number of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel. Israel would also withdraw from populated areas, cease aerial operations, allow far more aid to enter and permit Palestinians to return to their homes, including in devastated northern Gaza.""The second phase, to be negotiated during the first, would include the release of all remaining hostages, mostly soldiers, in exchange for all Palestinian detainees over the age of 50, including senior militants. Israel would release an additional 1,500 prisoners, 500 of whom would be specified by Hamas, and complete its withdrawal from Gaza.""In the third phase, the sides would exchange the remains of hostages and prisoners."Netanyahu said"military pressure was the best way to free the roughly 100 hostages held in captivity in the Gaza Strip, where they were taken after Hamas’ cross-border rampage into southern Israel on Oct. 7, which sparked the war.""Israel has made destroying Hamas’ governing and military abilities one of its wartime objectives, and Hamas’ proposal would effectively leave it in power in Gaza and allow it to rebuild its military capabilities.""Surrendering to Hamas’ delusional demands that we heard now not only won’t lead to freeing the captives, it will just invite another massacre,” Netanyahu said in a nationally televised evening news conference"

Julian Pavey ● 32d

What are the “arrogant terms demanded by Hamas” that you speak of? I imagine you have no idea in truth.

Andrew Jones ● 32d

It's called war. One started by the genocidal Islamist terrorists of Hamas murdering, torturing and sexually abusing civilians in Israel.  On the same day they also took hostages, overwhelmingly civilians. Both constitute war crimes. Israel has every right to defend itself & to eliminate Hamas. Unlike Hamas the IDF do not target civilians. It is Hamas which has terrorized the civilian population of Gaza since they won an election in 2005, killed all their Palestinian opponents & anyone who dared not to conform to their perverted world view, including women & gay men, established a Islamist dictatorship and destroyed what was a thriving economy. They shamelessly use civilians as human shields, including school children and hospital patients. Negotiations HAVE been taking place to free the hostages and end the war; it is the arrogant terms demanded by the Hamas leadership which are preventing any kind of deal being achieved. I hope that the war will soon end but it must not be on the Islamists' terms.

Stephen Edwards ● 32d

https://unctad.org/topic/palestinian-people/The-question-of-Palestine

Philippa Bond ● 32d

Both the UK and the US supply Israel with arms and equipment as well as humanitarian aid to the occupied Palestinian territory.

Philippa Bond ● 32d

Yes, let's pray that the hostages are freed soon. The longer they are captive in that hellish environment, the less chance of their coming out alive. Freeing the hostages is not a unilateral action. It's a matter for negotiation, and requires reciprocity in the form of Israel's stopping the killing, the destruction and the policy of deliberate starvation of the civilian population. Dare we hope?

Robert Fish ● 32d

Agree free the hostages.

Janice Evans ● 33d

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

Philippa Bond ● 33d

Yes and free the West Bank of the settlers !

David Burke ● 33d

The problems did not start on 7 October.  They were just dreadfully exacerbated enough to really put the situation back into the international news.In 1994 the Nobel Peace Prize was won by Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres his political rival and Palestinian Leader Yasser Arafat.  In 1995 Yitzhak Rabin was shot in the back at a peace rally by an extremist Israeli who disagreed with the Oslo Peace Accords.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/assassination-yitzhak-rabin-never-knew-his-people-shot-him-in-back   

Philippa Bond ● 33d

Ariel Bibas, 4Kfir Bibas, 10 monthsLiri Albag, 18Karina Ariev, 19Agam Berger, 19Rom Braslavski, 19Itay Chen, 19Nimrod Cohen,19Daniela Gilboa, 19Shay Levinson, 19Naama Levy, 19Tamir Nimrod, 19Itzhk Elgarat, 68Fernando Simon Marman, 60Lior Rudaeff, 61Siegel Samuel Keith, 64Amiram Cooper, 85Alexander Dancyg,75Gad Haggai, 73Luis Har, 70Oded Lifshitz, 83Yoram Metzger, 80Shlomo Mansour, 85Gadi Moshe Mozes, 79Abraham Munder, 79Chaim Peri, 79Judy Weinstein, 70And not forgetting all those in between 20 and 60 years of ageBring them home and stop the war or stop the war and return the hostages

Julian Pavey ● 33d

Stephen 100% agree free the hostages

Jayne Thorburn ● 33d

I agree, Julian, that protests have been going on against Netanyahu's judicial reforms since well before 7th October. However, I'm not sure I'd agree that it's only now that the media have started to cover them (look at previous posts by AP, Reuters, BBC, Guardian, CNN, Haaretz, Jewish News and Jerusalem Post) and it certainly doesn't detract from the fact that the hostages' families have recently become much more vocal in their criticism of Netanyahu.

Robert Fish ● 33d

Free the hostages!

Stephen Edwards ● 33d

My point was these protests are political and have been going on since last october.I have not played down the fact more people may have joined in the protests for other reasons but only now have the media got involved which points to people getting the idea that all these people have just come out to protest,just likely more who are apposed to the gvmt and what is happening.I again say that these protests are political as they were from the start. That is not taking away the idea that what is going on in shocking and it has to stop in some form of action.What you have done robert is se what the media have just reported and taken it at face value.Where was the media reporting when these protests in the past against Netanyahu and his govmt were taking place. That was the point i was making,nothing else.

Julian Pavey ● 33d

Jayne, you obviously feel you're losing the argument if you need to misrepresent me twice. First, I didn't make light of this 'super serious' issue. I was mocking Julian's attempt to downplay the reality of the hostages' families' criticism of Netanyahu when he suggested it was merely 'politics'. Second, I did not "turn on Isreal (sic) or the Jewish population". My criticism was specifically directed at Netanyahu.As for Julian's attempt to suggest today's  protest was just politics as usual, the fact is that it was by far the largest protest since 7th October. The crowd in Jerusalem stretched for blocks around the Knesset, and hostages'families were deeply involved. See what Haaretz says: "During the last two weeks, most of the families have maintained restraint, but toward the last weekend, many of them reached boiling point. This was brought on by the realisation that the negotiations were not moving forward, the media reports that Netanyahu was stalling and the testimony of freed hostages Amit Soussana and Moran Stela Yanai about the sexual abuse they suffered in captivity."If you still can't see Netanyahu for the criminal that he is, the hostages' families are under no illusion.

Robert Fish ● 33d

Robert this is a super serious thread let’s not make light of it…….Julian has a very fair point….politics….you have to be a real cynic to think that even a right wing PM doesn’t want the hostages freed, the challenge is at what price for Isreal? Hamas are the bad guys here let’s remember that and not turn on Isreal or the Jewish population. The way they are being treated in the UK is shocking, no room for pro Palestine without a thought for Israeli’s

Jayne Thorburn ● 33d

Well that's reassuring! So we can be certain the protests are without justification, and Netanyahu will agree to a deal that frees the hostages anytime soon?

Robert Fish ● 34d

Those protests are political and have been ongoing since last october but stopped after the terrorist attack on israel. And only now are the media using it as if people are only coming out now. Its party political and not new

Julian Pavey ● 34d

Jayne, have you seen the protests today, involving many thousands, including the families of the hostages, in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa and several other Israeli cities? They're complaining about Netanyahu, not Hamas. They see Netanyahu as the biggest obstacle to a ceasefire agreement. He doesn't give a damn about the hostages, and is only interested in prolonging the conflict for his own personal interest.One of the speakers at the Tel Aviv rally was Amos Malks, a former head of the Israel Defense Forces’ military intelligence directorate. He said: “If the families knew how small the gap is, which Netanyahu is refusing to close in negotiations with Hamas, they would explode". “This is more evidence of his unsuitability to serve.”

Robert Fish ● 34d

In 1995 a young Israeli Law student assassinated his own Prime Minister for promoting a peace accord with Palestine.What bearing has that to do with Israel's current justification in eradicating terrorist Hamas?

Denis Ian Fox ● 34d

I may be naive but yes I do believe Isreal would have to stop if hostages are released there would be so much world pressure on them. Hamas have stated they want to wipe all Jews off the planet so this is a truly complex situation. Don’t think anyone knows how to solve it, there is no trust on either side and unless Hamas leave then I fear decent Palestinians will continue to be caught in the middle. Let’s not forget how this started on 7th October. Putin and Iran have a hand in this that I am sure about.

Jayne Thorburn ● 34d

Do you really think it will make a difference if Hamas releases the hostages?  Do you think the Israeli Govt will then let humanitarian aid in?  Do you think they'll free the teenagers who throw stones at the army?  Doesn't everyone including their families want them to be released? The hostages' families are protesting and calling fof their Govt to get them released. The Israeli Govt with all its massive amount of intelligence, protection and warning systems missed or ignored the warnings.  It is well known that there are some  prominent Israelis not just occupying Palestinian land on the West Bank but blatantly and openly encouraging other Israelis to illegally do so. Trying to push them out and off their land again.Remember it was an Israeli who shot Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in the back.

Philippa Bond ● 34d

We all care about both sides, the reality is that Hamas are still holding hostages, if they cared just 1% about fellow citizens why on earth haven’t they released them? Why hasn’t non Hamas government talked to the Hamas? The truth is none of us truly know what is going on. Yes, before everyone shouts the regular citizens are caught in the middle and it is an absolute travesty. The UN have called for an immediate cease fire on both sides but the reality is until Hamas put down their arms and release the hostages nothing will change. I just hope a human corridor will open up for the children. The challenge is who is aiding Hamas impossible to know. It’s an impossible situation it will take huge courage and bravery on both sides to stop it. Meanwhile the police in London are dealing with pro Hamas protesters with no regard for the Israeli plight super sad for both sides.

Jayne Thorburn ● 34d

https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240328-ord-01-00-en.pdfAnother call for the prevention of genocide as the trucks of aid wait in lines to be allowed into the region by Israel.

Philippa Bond ● 34d

This photo of a starving nine-year-old Palestinian boy, who was evacuated from northern Gaza to an International Medical Corps field hospital in Rafah shows the full horror of Israel's blockade of Gaza. War crime? Crime against humanity? Genocide? Meanwhile Biden talks tough but does absolutely nothing to stop the flow of arms to Israel. Is Netanyahu's escalation of the conflict in Lebanon and Syria a cynical ploy to convince Biden that without arms supplies Israel will be at risk from a broader conflict?

Robert Fish ● 35d

Humanity is totally f)£&£d. It’s gone, finished. World ‘leaders’ don’t care. It’s a free for all for everyone to grab more land as the population explodes and more and more people rush to get into the so called free world.

Steve Taylor ● 42d

What does Putin care for a few more deaths in Gaza if it takes attention away from his murderous campaign against Ukraine.

Richard Greenhough ● 43d

The Biden administration has at last been persuaded of the need to call for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, and Russia and China have vetoed the resolution. Geopolitics trumps humanitarianism. It's a cruel world out there.

Robert Fish ● 43d

Hamas as we know, care nothing for the citizens they use as protective shields in the face of gunfire.Tomorrow we again look forward to the throng of protesters, many who admire the Hamas terrorists, marching through our city streets under police surveillance and costing the tax payer a great deal.

Denis I. Fox ● 84d

Perhaps if Hamas released the hostages and thought about their own citizens we might get somewhere.

Jayne Thorburn ● 85d

Indeed. Hamas has now been holding the hostages for more than four months, ever since their terrorist attack on October 7th.

Richard Greenhough ● 85d

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/netanyahu-olmert-gaza-offensive-israel-b2493430.htmlA growing number of deaths which will increase the hate.  And still the hostages have not been released.

Philippa Bond ● 85d

https://www.nrc.no/news/2024/february/gaza-israels-military-operation-in-rafah-would-be-fatal-for-displaced-civilians-and-humanitarian-aid/I can see we will be adding Gaza to the Memorial for all the other known genocides already listed there.

Philippa Bond ● 85d

Maajid Nawaz, founder of Quilliam Think Tank;"We remind all those who value our blessed father Abraham; Stand down from world war 3. Peace is the only way obviously.Do not let our shared vision of Abrahamic unity fall into this obvious trap, do not let us down, the truth demands allegiance. Israel founded and funded Hamas. The CIA provided funding arms and tactical support to ISIS.everything you thought you knew will be turned upside down, its has been run by inversion.We will be here to try and help you make sense of it all".

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 94d

"Equally, if the Israelis could install a government that embraced the idea of a two-state solution…"Hamas would take that as a sign of weakness and carry on with their terrorism. The initial olive branch would have to come from the Palestinians, and then the world would pressure Israel to negotiate. I suspect that a significant number of Israelis would then vote for a government embracing a two-state solution, as long as they were convinced of the good faith of the Palestinians.

Richard Greenhough ● 94d

“the world would shame Israel into taking that option seriously.“The problem is that Israel has shown the world that it is incapable of being shamed. They are just too arrogant and mentally damaged since the Holocaust. It’s the age old story repeated and repeated and repeated. The abused become the abuser. It’s the same since time immemorial. The Israelis will never admit they are wrong and they don’t know the meaning of compassion.

Steve Taylor ● 94d

Equally, if the Israelis could install a government that embraced the idea of a two-state solution…

Peter Evans ● 94d

How many more women and children must die of bombing, starvation or disease before Hamas learns that terrorism is not the answer to the problems of Gaza and the West Bank? If the Palestinians could install a leadership that embraced the idea of a two-state solution, the world would shame Israel into taking that option seriously.

Richard Greenhough ● 94d

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68141039As far as I can see, the situation in Gaza is far worse than before the ICJ ruling. It is absolutely unconscionable that Western countries should withdraw funding from the UNRWA because of the Israeli government's denunciation of the participation of 12 UNRWA emploees in the October 7th massacre. Was the timing of this denunciation, immediately after the court's ruling, a cynical diversionary tactic?It's not surprising that a small number of employees were involved in the attack of 7th October - Palestinians make up most of the local staff. But the UNRWA is investigating, and has already sacked nine of the employees, whilst two are missing and one is dead. Why the indecent haste to condemn the agency itself, and withdraw funding? Here's what a coalition of other aid agencies (including Oxfam, Save the Children and Action Aid) said about the decision: "We are shocked by the reckless decision to cut a lifeline for an entire population by some of the very countries that had called for aid in Gaza to be stepped up and for humanitarians to be protected while doing their job".Meanwhile, relatives of the kidnapped Israelis are trying to block the delivery of what little aid there is, as an attempt to force the release of the hostages. This will inevitably end badly. How many more women and children must die of bombing, starvation or disease before Israel learns that force is not the answer to the problems of Gaza and the West Bank? And how much longer will our government be complicit in this crime against humanity?

Robert Fish ● 94d

Hi Kerry - if the date I ve written is wrong Im happy to be corrected on it.

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 121d

Well as Michael Good and Julian Pavey said there are other conflicts that have dropped/been dropped from the headlines and which we should remember such as Syria and Nigeria, Burma and Sudan.  I think the majority of us probably would like peace on earth.  Taking an active interest in the outside world and making sure that your MP is taking part in matters in the Commons is a part of that.Living in London gives you the much easier chance to take advantage of a trip to the HOC and HOL.

Philippa Bond ● 122d

Yes, but you have to keep a sense of perspective,Phillipa.Lobby your MP by all means,but don't imagine for one minute that airing your views on a forum like this does anyone but yourself any good and neither should you imply that no one cares because they don't air their views in the same way,which was the gist of what was said in the op.

Keith Iddon ● 122d

If you don't ask you won't get.  Have you never been around Parliament?

Philippa Bond ● 122d

Let us know what you achieve Philippa. Questions in Parliament raised by Chiswick residents. Gongs all round

Maggie Dodge ● 122d

I don't think discussing something is moaning and nor is considering what actions might and could make a difference. Our MPs can ask questions in Parliament and they are there to represent us.

Philippa Bond ● 122d

Don’t be daft, Anna. Robinson didn’t visit Gaza in December. There’s no access to Gaza. That’s a clip from years ago. Admittedly he doesn’t make that clear, he’s more than happy to fool his gullible followers.

Kerry Chandler ● 123d

I don’t think we should “retreat from the wider world” what evidence do you have to say that about me.? Just because  I don’t think moaning on ChiswickW4 will make a difference.

Maggie Dodge ● 123d

Here's your answer on Palestine: if failing to follow in the odious Tommy Robinson's footsteps is cowardice according to some weird definition of yours, I am proud to be a coward. Now it's your turn to answer my question: are you a Russian stooge? No more evasion, please.

Robert Fish ● 123d

Tommy Robinson has just visited a refugee camp in Palestine. For the video - see RobbyTominson on twitter December 13th.So Robert Fish - how about it ? Are you going to be a big brave boy in 2024 and follow in Tommys steps and go see the place you re appealing for ?????

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 123d

So you think we should retreat from the wider world?  I don't think so.  If we close our eyes to what is happening elsewhere it is quite likely to make it more dangerous for us.  It certainly doesn't make it go away.I see that the Israeli Supreme Court has ruled against the law that so many Israelis were demonstrating against earlier in the year.

Philippa Bond ● 123d

More protest, yes Mr Fish that’s a great idea . Seriously you haven’t a clue .

Maggie Dodge ● 125d

That’s your opinion Michael and you’re free to post  it as I am to say that I don’t think it’s appropriate. More importantly my point was the notion we could have an effect 😂

Maggie Dodge ● 125d

Caroline, I did have an opinion , and it was that this was not a suitable subject for a local forum. I still think that,  but you missed that I specifically put IMO at the end. So think on

Maggie Dodge ● 125d

And various reports have debunked the yacht purchase story. See for example:  https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-volodymyr-zelensky-olena-zelenska-yacht-purchase-1848520

Robert Fish ● 125d

Coke?debunked by Reuters Fact Check of online misinformation

Julian Pavey ● 125d

You appear to be more than just another conspiracy theory dupe, Anna. You eagerly embrace any report (false or true, but usually false) which casts Zelenskyy in a bad light. What's your line? You may not be antisemitic, but you are clearly prepared to use the antisemitic Khazarian conspiracy theory to discredit Ukraine. Are you a pro-Moscow stooge?

Robert Fish ● 125d

Isabelle partner of Pascal Najadi " When empires collapse, most are surprised and ruined.. brace brace brace".

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 125d

Michael - we will need new "conspiracy theories" - if they all keep coming true at the present rate...

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 125d

Anyone who tells the truth is called a conspiracy theorist, nowadays..

Michael Brown ● 125d

Id rather be labelled a conspiracy theorist than a coward -Robert.

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 125d

Fish is free to post on this matter if he wishes. Others can decide whether they wish to participate in the discussion or not..

Michael Brown ● 125d

This is a poston a local forum.  There are no rules that say someone is not allowed to ask or comme on any subject in the world that interests them or that they care about. If the title does not attract you to read it or give an opinion on it then don't bother commenting.  It is not mandatory to do so neither is it illeagle not to do so but you M Dodgeseem to have no problem commenting on such posts as you say you have no opinion about just so you may comment about someone you don't likes opinions in general. As I said before anyone can start a post they make a chise as do you.  You however have no right or power to tell them it shuld not be there that is for the modertors and the rest of the forum members and I found the comments ineresting.  Just think how boring the endless fights about repetitive local matters are for some of us and maybe start a post that inteests or informs everyone like the excellent Orchids of Madagascr exhibition coming at Kew.  I can't think of anything as fabulous as some very beautiful flowers interesting culture and music and a great walkto cheer us up in the new year until March end

Caroline Carney ● 125d

"It's utterly petty to be squabbling about virtue signalling while Rome burns."It was the Romans who were slaughtering the Jewish people in Palestine in AD70, which led to the diaspora. Plus ca change....

Richard Greenhough ● 125d

Why don't you engage your brain before posting, Maggie? The peculiar characteristic of the Gaza conflict which distinguishes it from most of the others going on at present is that the Israel campaign of vengeance has the active support of the US government, and the complicity of our government. As I've said before, but you don't seem to understand, Israel is a client state of the USA. If the USA stopped providing unconditional support, Israel might just adopt different tactics.  And if our government stopped its complicity, Biden might just think again. So whatever pressure people can exert via their MP or via protests might help.  It's not, as alleged by some who appear to be smarting from a perceived slight, merely virtue signalling. It's utterly petty to be squabbling about virtue signalling while Rome burns.

Robert Fish ● 125d

Maggie,it's called virtue signalling,your feelings having to be paraded for all to see so everyone knows how pure you are.Whetherit makes any difference to reality is for the signaller to decide I suppose,but it's usually a self serving device that makes not a jot of difference.

Keith Iddon ● 125d

"Are you happy to let the horror show continue unabated?"Possibly the dumbest question posed on this forum ever.

Adrian Irving ● 125d

Oh for goodness sake, to suggest it’s not the thing we’re all talking is ridiculous. To suggest we can affect what happens is even more ludicrous. As Julian says there are other conflicts, are you going to solve them all on Chiswick W4

Maggie Dodge ● 125d

Shame the top religious leaders withing the 2 regions or even hamas are not calling for a ceasefire. Only the people are calling out while both are firing rockets at each other with no thought. Please think of the massacre going on in nigeria where christians are being slaughtered by Boko Haram and Fulani Muslim herders. It is reported that christmas eve over 200+ were slaughtered.

Julian Pavey ● 125d

The point is, Mrs Dodge, the more we discuss it, the greater may be the pressure to do something about it. More people might write to their MPs, or take part in protests. Are you happy to let the horror show continue unabated?

Robert Fish ● 125d

What a horrible topic for a local forum. Shame on Mr Fish and the idiotic non post by Anne England. You’d have to be brain dead not to be thinking about Gaza, or caring but what is the point of discussing it here. Except to create division on far too an important an issue for ChiswickW4 IMO

Maggie Dodge ● 125d

The only position I take on antisemitic conspiracy theories circulating on social media is to studiously ignore them.

Robert Fish ● 125d

Mikhail, you fail to answer the question. As someone with Viking ancestry, I can assure you that we never went away.

Richard Greenhough ● 126d

Hi again Robert - what position do you take on the Khazarian Mafia in relation to the Israeli/ Gaza conflict ?

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 126d

Fallen down another rabbit hole, Anna? See Francis Rowe's post at 12.19 on the Ukraine thread.

Robert Fish ● 126d

The UK GOVT WERE PUT INTO THE SAME COURT IN 2020 FOR "CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY." Ask the same media source who told you your info for your above post - why they ve hidden the charges against the UK govt from you.

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 126d

Jeremy, you have misrepresented my position on Gaza in so many ways that I scarcely know where to start correcting you.I did not insist that "silence equals callousness and indifference". That is your wholly unjustified inference. My last question was merely intended to elicit a response, which seems to have been successful, but not quite as hoped. I didn't realise some people are quite so thin-skinned.When you "point out that this is a complex and tragic situation in which both sides have just cause for grievance and have carried out shameful actions" you are merely stating the obvious, and something with which I would agree. I have never sought to deny the enormity of what Hamas did on 7th October. Nor was it my intention to "pick a side in a war". You may ask therefore why I appear to be so exercised about the actions of the IDF rather than Hamas. The answer is because what Hamas did is already history (although I recognise that, if they aren't destroyed, it could happen again). We can't revisit the past, and revive the lives that were shattered in so many appalling ways on that day. But what the IDF is doing is happening now, and perhaps if our voices are loud enough we can persuade Western governments to do something to stop the massacre.Please indicate where I have expressed opinions as fact. Are you referring to my opinions about genocide? I have specifically said that we can't call the IDF's actions genocide, because we can't be sure about the intention. All I commented on was the practical effect. As to intention, I think you'll find that South Africa, in its submission to the International Court of Justice has indicated evidence of genocidal intent - President Herzog saying there are 'no innocents in Gaza', and the Defence Minister saying Israel will impose collective punishment on the people of Gaza because they are ‘human animals’.In answer to your point in a previous post about the inevitability of collateral damage, how do you justify the use of 2000lb dumb bombs in a tightly-packed urban environment? Are there no subtler and more humane ways of slaying the dragon?

Robert Fish ● 126d

Temporarily at least.

Keith Iddon ● 126d

Thank you for this important reminder about peace Jeremy. All wars end in  peace eventually, its just a question of how much blood and money on the journey there  gets wrung out by those who profit from such things - before peace is secured.

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 126d

Robert, I did read your post carefully, and understood it, but it appears you did not.You wrote: “I wonder how much of my post you read or understood. I specifically avoided calling the Israeli actions genocide.”But you had said earlier, “there may be some doubt as to whether the intention is to destroy that group, in whole or in part, or whether it is to kill sufficient members of that group to force them to disown Hamas. But either way the effect is tantamount to genocide.”I am not aiming to serve as an apologist for either side, just trying to point out that this is complex and tragic situation in which both sides have just cause for grievance and have carried out shameful actions. It has to be said you come across as quite sanctimonious in condemning your neighbours for not wishing to comment on the matter and insisting that their silence equals callousness and indifference. Expounding your views in a strident (yes strident) manner and expressing opinions as fact is not an indication that you are a more caring person that the rest of us.Most people recognise, that if you want to encourage peace, the last thing you should do is pick a side in a war.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 126d

Brigadier, most lands throughout the world have had different rulers over many millennia. We're talking about designated lands and ownership in recent history. I guess you would welcome the Vikings back to Britain..

Michael Brown ● 126d

Well said,Adrian.

Keith Iddon ● 127d

Most people on this forum say what they think whilst others try to tell people what they should think.

Adrian Irving ● 127d

Even the great Andrew Neil can make no moral stance on the Israeli/Hamas war.In his words: "Tragically, some wars just have to take their course"

Denis I. Fox ● 127d

The war machine must be fed continously,  its always hungry for more war.. The shareholders demand it.. Ask Theresa Mays husband Philip who "made a killing" from defence investments in Lockheed Martin when Theresa called in the Syrian air strikes...

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 127d

"My understanding is that Palestine became occupied way back by an uninvited force, and the people have been persecuted ever since."Do you mean the Babylonians, the Macedonians, the Romans, the Saracens, the Crusaders, the Ottomans, or some other "uninvited force" ? Sadly that small patch of land at the eastern end of the Mediterranean has been fought over by many people and armies over many millennia. Until the Palestinians come up with a leadership prepared to discuss a two-state solution and shame Israel into taking part in meaningful negotiations to achieve it, there seems little prospect of a lasting peace.

Richard Greenhough ● 127d

What's Priti Patel got to do with it?

Anne England ● 127d

Or even "party pris"!

Robert Fish ● 127d

"Strident"? Strident means excessively forceful. I don't think that, in the midst of the perpetual bad-tempered squabbles on this forum over bikes, LTNs, etc, a call to end the virtual silence over Gaza is unnecessarily forceful. If you wish to interpret my post as implying that anyone who doesn't share my point of view lacks compassion, be my guest, but that wasn't the intention, and all I can say in response is that you seem to be very easily irritated.Is this another of your posts such as we have seen in the bicycle/car dispute, where you feign impartiality, but actually seem to be parti pri? Are you a disguised apologist for the IDF?As for your comments on genocide, I wonder how much of my post you read or understood. I specifically avoided calling the Israeli actions genocide, because one couldn't be sure whether they were intended to destroy Gazan Palestinians as a group, in whole or in part, or simply to kill them in sufficient numbers to undermine support for Hamas. But in practical terms, when 21,000 people have been slaughtered (most of the victims being women and children) what's the difference?Finally, if you feel that someone who has never been to either Israel or Gaza isn't qualified to comment on this subject, perhaps you might be prepared to listen to the views of a distinguished Israeli-British historian, who grew up in Ramat Gan and served two years in the Israeli Defence Forces:  https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/world/israel/64132/all-that-remains

Robert Fish ● 127d

'not surprising' or 'unsurprising', sorry..

Michael Brown ● 127d

My understanding is that Palastine became occupied way back by an uninvited force, and the people have been persecuted ever since. The Hamas attack is regrettable but not unsurprising. I don't believe that Netanyahu is just trying to destroy Hamas, but kill as many Palestinians as he can..

Michael Brown ● 127d

I suspect the reason the question was asked is that it would be normally be expected that someone with such strident and confident opinions would have direct and personal knowledge of what was happening.Other than a few stop overs in the Gulf States I've never been to the Middle East so I hesitate to jump to one side of the argument over this horrific situation. I think I won't be alone in being slightly irritated with your implication that anyone who doesn't share your point of view lacks compassion or hasn't considered the situation with some care.To use the term genocide in this context seems to be deliberately provocative and doesn't really stand up to any close scrutiny. Certainly there are people in Israel including those in government whose views could be interpreted as genocidal but the actions of the IDF, while arguably barbaric and excessive are not genocidal.They would claim that civilian deaths are a regrettable but unavoidable outcome of an entirely proportionate and justifiable military action against a territory which is one of the most densely population in the world and against an enemy which effectively uses the people living there as human shields and is continuing to fire rockets at Israel.Whether this is the whole truth I can't say. On the one hand there is no doubt that the destruction wrought on Gaza is appalling but if it is genocidal in intent it has to be said that the IDF are extremely inefficient. According to Hamas health ministry figures the death toll is over 21,000. This is about the same number as the amount of explosive rounds fired into the strip since the start of the assault.The IDF says it gives warnings to occupants of buildings to be attacked and there is testimony of residents receiving calls from Arabic speakers warning them to move. Buildings are 'double tapped' i.e. there is a low explosive charge shell dropped on the top floor of a building before the high explosive round. The IDF says all missiles fired are subject to pre-approval from a team of lawyers independent of the army who must receive evidence that the target is a legitimate military one. Are these rules and guidelines always followed or are they implemented in a way that errs on the side of vindictiveness? I don't know, I've never been to the region so don't have enough knowledge to have a firm opinion.What is undeniable is that the IDF claims it follows rules of engagement and proportionality which are exactly the same used by the RAF in conflicts. This regards anyone within the proximity of a military target as effectively not being a civilian. Our armed forces have killed lots of people on this basis over the past few decades. This is deemed legitimate in the way we interpret the rules of conflict. Obviously, I would like the violence to stop now and no more innocents to be killed and I'm sure everyone feels the same. However, two questions need to be asked. Firstly, in the aftermath of a 7 October-like incident affecting this country would you be backing similar action on the territory of the perpetrator to that currently being carried out by the IDF on Gaza? Shamefully, I suspect I would. Secondly, were the UK in the same situation as Israel, do you think any government could accept a ceasefire and not immediately be booted out of power? My view is that this would be inconceivable.Our ability to impact events in this situation is very limited and any satisfactory solution is going to be very hard to achieve. However, the most effective way for any individual to further inflame conflict is take a simplistic, unnuanced view of what is happening and condemn one side in terms that they are likely to find unjustified and highly offensive.As I will keep stressing, I don't have enough knowledge of the situation to reach a fixed view. What I can say with some confidence is that, after 7 October, Hamas, or any similar successor organisation, cannot have any involvement in government in Gaza. If we want Israel to stop killing innocent women and children, a solution needs to be offered to them that involves a future without Hamas. I really don't have the faintest idea what that might be.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 127d

No! Why do you ask?

Robert Fish ● 128d

Have you ever been to Gaza or Israel Robert ??

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 128d

A good point, Michael. We shouldn't forget that over half a million people have been killed in Syria, and half the population displaced, since 2011. But there is a difference between Syria and Israel: Syria isn't a client state of the US, and American influence to stop the civil war is limited. Unless it wants to engage in a war with Russia, there's not much the US can do other than impose sanctions. But where it does have influence, it has done nothing to restrain Netanyahu's excesses, and the UK, in its abstention on Security Council resolutions (until the last anodyne one), and its continued insistence on Israel's right to defend itself, has been largely complicit.

Robert Fish ● 130d

Maybe have a think about Syria too ?In 2022, the United Nations estimated that more than 306,000 civilians have been killed in Syria during the ongoing civil war, while other human rights groups have placed the number at more than half a million.The international body in 2021 pointed the finger at Damascus for “heinous violations of international humanitarian and human rights law perpetrated against the civilian population in Syria since March 2011. Such acts are likely to constitute crimes against humanity, war crimes and other international crimes, including genocide.” Damascus has additionally been accused of using chemical weapons against its own citizens.

Michael Good ● 130d

Miss England - we should care, and do all we can to save the unnecessary loss of lives in all situations. Fish has been cherry picking for sometime now, but all lives matter..

Michael Brown ● 130d

Robert, I think you'll find that the great majority of the people who use the forum do care deeply about the horrors that are taking place in Gaza. They may, however, feel that a little local forum such as ChiswickW4 is not a suitable place to express the sheer volume of grief, anger and fear that such a cataclysm engenders. Differences of opinion on the forum tend to deteriorate into petty back-and-forth exchanges with no firm conclusions reached; the Gaza tragedy is far too serious for that treatment.

Colin Jordan ● 130d

Never miss an opportunity, eh Michael?

Anne England ● 130d

Agree Keith.

Janice Evans ● 131d

To suggest that no one else on the forum cares but you about the desperate plight of civilians in Gaza is bizarre.I care very much,but am not really sure what to do about it.I do think of the desperate situation there,but what difference to the suffering does that make? If I believed in God I would pray for them,not that it would do any good either.

Keith Iddon ● 131d

I care, Mr Fish. I care about this and all deaths incurred as a result of State sponsored psy-ops, which includes the Great Covid Response Scam & coerced lethal Covid injections. People are suddenly dropping dead all over the place, particularly the young. Please spare a thought for these people and their families too, Mr Fish..Merry Xmas

Michael Brown ● 131d

I most certainly do care - it’s horrific and I can’t believe how little our gov. are doing - this is most certainly genocide .

Helen Bamberger ● 131d