Forum Topic

Please think of Gaza

At this special time of year for Christians, I can scarcely believe the combination of indifference to the plight of Gaza and the parochialism and meanness of spirit shown on the forum in the past 24 hours. Whilst Gaza is destroyed and several hundreds of lives are lost, local preoccupations seem to be either petty hatred of cyclists and the local authority which is supposedly in thrall to them, or an obsession with 'woke' culture. We are complicit in the 'genocide', as we remain silent whilst Biden and Sunak sit on their hands and do nothing to stop the slaughter. I say 'genocide' because, although there is no doubt that the Israeli actions in Gaza constitute the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular national, ethnic, racial or religious group, there may be some doubt as to whether the intention is to destroy that group, in whole or in part, or whether it is to kill sufficient members of that group to force them to disown Hamas. But either way the effect is tantamount to genocide.Does no-one care?

Robert Fish ● 583d294 Comments

See what Mr Justice Chamberlain said about the Palestine Action proscription:"If, as the claimant says, the proscription order is likely to have a significant chilling effect on the legitimate political speech of many thousands of people, that would do considerable harm to the public interest … I consider it reasonably arguable that the proscription order amounts to a disproportionate interference with the article 10 and article 11 (European convention of human rights) rights (freedom of expression and assembly, respectively) of the claimant and others". Indeed!Meanwhile Netanyahu must be quaking in his boots after Starmer's threat to recognise the state of Palestine in September, if he doesn't agree to a cease-fire. How many more people will the IDF and the security contractors working for GHF kill in the meantime, and how many more small children will die of hunger? Where's the sense of urgency?

Robert Fish ● 5h

“Friend, we joined up with organisations across the UK to raise our voices, and Keir Starmer listened. In just over 24 hours, 63,113 of us called on our Prime Minister to put the starvation of people in Gaza at the top of the list for his meeting yesterday with President Trump. And he did. Starmer made the demands of the British public clear – calling on President Trump to help end the “absolutely intolerable” situation in Gaza and push Israel to unblock aid and save people’s lives. [1] And it even led to Trump admitting for the first time that Gaza is facing “real starvation”. [2] But we know that too little is being done by our Government and other governments around the world in the face of such suffering. All of us will want to be able to do more. So to build on this weekend's open letter, we wanted to share a few more ways you could help make a difference today: ✍️ Sign this 38 Degrees petition calling on the UK Government to suspend arms sales to Israel. 💸 Make a donation to an organisation supporting people in Gaza, like Medical Aid for Palestinians (MAP), which 38 Degrees supporters have already donated £3,167 to off the back of this weekend's action. ✉️ Write to your MP to push this urgent issue up their agenda – you could use this guide from Red Line for Gaza or write your own message for your local MP.Whether it's taking action online, donating to help people on the ground in Gaza, or attending a protest, it will all add up to keep the pressure on our political leaders to do all they can to help. Thank you for everything you do, Matthew and the 38 Degrees team “https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/suspend-arms-sales-to-israel-until-they-let-aid-into-gaza-and-follow-international-law?source=web-share-api-button&utm_campaign=blast128752&utm_medium=socialshare&utm_source=web_share_api&share=05f7b84b-8e74-42c5-a2c4-159d50717c4c

Steve Taylor ● 1d

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/28/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-say-israel-based-human-rights-groups?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_OtherTime to increase the pressure on Starmer. Please sign the 38 degrees petition posted by Steve Taylor.

Robert Fish ● 2d

https://act.38degrees.org.uk/act/trump-starmer-gaza?utm_source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=blast128124&submit=true&has_regular_donation=false

Steve Taylor ● 4d

I did, very sobering and a horrific description of what is happening on the ground to innocent defenceless starving civilians from a credible ex-Special forces soldier.

Andrew Jones ● 5d

I hope you all saw the very sobering testimony that I just witnessed on the BBC news from an ex American serviceman who has been working in Gaza.Lt.Colonel Agular,who witnessed first hand the IDF and American mercenaries firing on unarmed and starving crowds at food stations.I

Keith Iddon ● 5d

It seems pretty clear that the Israeli objective is to drive the Palestinian population out of Gaza as well as to take over the West Bank. Their present destructive actions in both places are entirely consistent with this, and their government ministers have said as much, as they press ahead to make any talk of two-state solutions increasingly irrelevant and impractical. The pressure is on neighbouring Egypt and Jordan to open their borders and take in the however many million made homeless and starving and give them 'a new home'.  Then, as far as Israel is concerned, the 'problem' would be solved.  And let's have the bottom left hand corner of Syria while we're at it, and that handy slice of Lebanon.

Peter Evans ● 5d

Cannot explain inner-feeling but it was there when he was voted in thatWorld Affairs would be o.k. with him,  don't think I expected much else really.

Janice Evans ● 5d

I'm hoping we can trust him on World Issues, admit not much has been good in other areas.

Janice Evans ● 5d

You have 'an inner trust in Starmer'? Many in the Labour Party wouldn't claim that Janice,never mind many of the rest of us.I don't know on what you base your confidence in him,I can't see that he is up to much myself.

Keith Iddon ● 5d

Ha, I have an inner trust in Starmer that he won't do anything that leads to (how shall I put it) consequences here.  Hope I'm not wrong.

Janice Evans ● 5d

I don't think he has much of an idea about that,Janice.

Keith Iddon ● 5d

Very true, I'm trusting Starmer will only do what is right for us as a Country.

Janice Evans ● 5d

Yes,there could be a lot more done by several countries,including the neighbouring ones who seem to be very quiet,to allieviate the misery we are witnessing.

Keith Iddon ● 5d

Of course it is but Starmer is not interested in doing anything about it.

Steve Taylor ● 5d

While holding hostages is a war crime, the overwhelming majority of war crimes that are being commited on a seemingly daily basis in Gaza are being perpetrated by the IDF, not Hamas.

Andrew Jones ● 5d

Food is there waiting to be taken in, it has become to risky for aid workers.

Janice Evans ● 5d

So Starmer is going to speak to Macron and some other PM tomorrow and the three of them will probably agree to do NOTHING.

Steve Taylor ● 6d

Your usual one-eyed analysis, Richard! Hamas clearly bears responsibility for the outrage which triggered the violence we've seen since 7th October 2023. But there's no reason why the violence should still be continuing (other than Netanyahu's need for perpetual conflict to defer the day when he will have to face criminal prosecution). Hamas is a broken force which no longer represents a threat to the state of Israel. In what sense can it be said to be "creating incidents that result in death and injury to the people they claim to represent". You may seek to justify mass murder of a civilian population as necessary collateral damage in  the final destruction of such Hamas elements as remain, but how do you explain away the forced starvation of the civilian population of Gaza, including foreign medics, aid workers and journalists? What about the death from starvation of innocent children? Do you not feel anger when you see horrific images, such as the one I posted at 13.54?More questions: do you seriously think that forced starvation in Gaza will achieve the return of the hostages? Is it not more likely that it will result in the death by starvation of the relatively few hostages that may still be alive? And how do you balance the mere possibility of achieving the return of a few hostages against the almost certain death from starvation of children in far greater numbers? Unless you're one of those people who think that Palestinian lives are comparatively worthless, how can you live with this thought?  Finally, how is all this going to guarantee Israel's security? It's more likely that it will guarantee decades, if not centuries, of strife. Hamas may be near finished as an effective military organisation, but the inhumanity shown to Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank will serve to recruit members of new terror groups for decades to come.

Robert Fish ● 6d

Doing all it can? Why hasn't the government imposed a total embargo on arms exports to Israel? It has only imposed a partial arms suspension where there is a clear risk that UK military components may be used in Gaza to facilitate or carry out serious violations of international humanitarian law. The suspension is meant to cover all arms and military equipment used by Israeli forces in the current hostilities in Gaza, which, according to the government, is just 30 of the approximately 350 arms export licenses to Israel! The embargo is a pathetically weak gesture of disapproval. And then of course, there is the large loophole of the US Department of Defense global spares programme, under which the UK indirectly supplies components for the F-35s which the ID uses to bomb Gaza.If only Lammy's fine words were reflected in government action!

Robert Fish ● 6d

Shortly before his death Philosopher Bertrand Russell (the son of a Prime Minister) issued a statement on the Israel-Palestine War.  Sadly much of it remains relevant today. I attach a small extract below and a link to the whole statement.Russell was accused of Anti-Semitism because of this statement. There is no evidence for this accusation."All who want to see an end to bloodshed in the Middle East must ensure that any settlement does not contain the seeds of future conflict. Justice requires that the first step towards a settlement must be an Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied in June 1967. A new world campaign is needed to help bring justice to the long–suffering people of the Middle East".https://abdelmoumenchouichi.medium.com/bertrand-russells-last-message-israel-palestine-war-694eb7a7a99e

Sam Hearn ● 6d

Very well put Richard.

Denis I. Fox ● 6d

Only Brazil has had the guts to join South Africa while David Lammy spouts meaningless words and people continue to die. “ BRASILIA, July 23 (Reuters) - Brazil is finalizing its submission to join South Africa's genocide case against Israel's actions in Gaza at the International Court of Justice, the foreign ministry said in a statement on Wednesday.South Africa filed a case in 2023 asking the ICJ to declare that Israel was in breach of its obligations under the 1948 Genocide Convention. The case argues that in its war against Hamas militants, Israel's military actions go beyond targeting Hamas alone by attacking civilians, with strikes on schools, hospitals, camps and shelters.”

Steve Taylor ● 6d

What is happening in Gaza is appalling - yet Hamas, having provoked the Israeli action, are still holding hostages and creating incidents that result in death and injury to the people they claim to represent, and making the efforts of relief workers far harder than they should be. It is Hamas that is complicit in crimes against humanity.

Richard Greenhough ● 6d

As David Lammy made perfectly clear the day before yesterday on Ch4 news “Look, this government is doing all it can”.There you have it. The Foreign Secretary has spoken. 

Steve Taylor ● 6d

Any country which fails to break with, or, even worse, continues to supply arms to, Israel is complicit in crimes against humanity. This image speaks to the cruelty of Israel's war on Gaza more than any photos of bomb destruction.

Robert Fish ● 6d

Robert Fish ● 6d

Of course you could predict it because there is only one answer to your quite ridiculous interpretation of terrorism and crime and your absurd suggestion that the government was wrong, either legally or morally, on this issue. The Proscription is 100% correct and thank God the government came to its senses.

Steve Taylor ● 20d

Haha! Your post was so utterly predictable that I could have drafted it for you - except I'd probably have added a "moron", for the sake of authenticity.

Robert Fish ● 20d

“ the government is making it much easier for people who engage in civil disobedience as a form of protest to be given vastly longer sentences than they would receive for mere criminal damage. And anyone who expresses sympathy with them is also in danger”Yes, it’s fantastic!!  Finally the government has got something right. Terrorism must be wiped out. And how DARE these people think they can do £1 million of damage to government property and think they can get away with it when it is a blatant act of terror.

Steve Taylor ● 20d

Very good. Except you have left so much out in the act.You must have read the simpletons guide Next

Julian Pavey ● 20d

It's only simple for simpletons. Here's the definition of terrorism in the Terrorism Act:1 Terrorism: interpretation.(1)In this Act “terrorism” means the use or threat of action where—(a)the action falls within subsection (2),(b)the use or threat is designed to influence the government [F1or an international governmental organisation] or to intimidate the public or a section of the public, and(c)the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious [F2, racial] or ideological cause.(2)Action falls within this subsection if it—(a)involves serious violence against a person,(b)involves serious damage to property,(c)endangers a person’s life, other than that of the person committing the action,(d)creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public, or(e)is designed seriously to interfere with or seriously to disrupt an electronic system.So, yes, Palestine Action's activities may be designed to influence the government, which seems to be the reason why you have convinced yourself that they constitute terrorism. But you overlook the question of what is "serious damage" to property. How do you assess "serious"? If we take the Brize Norton escapade as an example, what makes the damage serious? Is it that it will cost, say, £1 million to clean the red paint from the engines? As no previous government has sought to proscribe an organisation because of actions which cause "serious damage to property", there's no case law as to what types of damage are sufficiently serious to amount to terrorism. Why has damage caused by Palestine Action been singled out as justifying proscription of the organisation? Why them, and not, for example, Extinction Rebellion? The fact is that, with this proscription, unless the judiciary take a narrow view of "serious damage" (damage which endangers human beings?), the government is making it much easier for people who engage in civil disobedience as a form of protest to be given vastly longer sentences than they would receive for mere criminal damage. And anyone who expresses sympathy with them is also in peril. The proscription of Palestine Action represents a major assault on freedom of thought and conscience and freedom of expression.

Robert Fish ● 20d

Yes really.What you forgot is the detail. They entered a military base, and the rest is noted.

Julian Pavey ● 21d

"The purpose is to protest or influence the Government " this is terrorism, really ? Where would this have paced the Suffragettes  ?

David Burke ● 21d

OKNo person wants to answer my question for the second time of asking.Clearly, one person is skirting around the issue and the laws. And not what a handful make known within the UN as an agenda, by a handful at best. Palestinian activists sprayed paint into the engines of two Voyager aircraft at RAF Brize Norton as a protest against the UK's support for Israel's war on Gaza. Within hours posted as action taken under the name of "Palestine Action"So the crucial part within that is the purpose to protest or influence the UK government.That part was the obvious answer to my questionThat makes it an act of terrorism and not vandalism or whatever you may wish to call it, and to do it under the banner of Palestine Action makes that group a terrorist group. As a military base and the target to change or influence or send a direct message to the UK government makes it an act of terrorism. Nothing more, nothing lessIt's straight and simple

Julian Pavey ● 21d

Still waiting for an answerto my question. Why did they spray and damagethe engines to 2 planes thatare pretty important.

Julian Pavey ● 22d

Surely they could install motion sensors around the perimeter of the airfield ? I appreciate that these could be triggered by animals, but presumably they can be sophisticated enough to spot humans ?

Richard Greenhough ● 22d

Airfield's have huge perimeter fences and patrolling them 24/7 would be pretty difficult.

Keith Iddon ● 22d

What I can't understand, is why there was/is no security on this base, at Brize Norton. Are all other bases just the same?  Surely there has to be 24 hour security, with dogs and armed guards? People being able to walk in without being stopped or challenged is beyond farcical. Our MPs appear to be clueless as well. You'll find more security in a Job Centre.

Brian Coyle ● 22d

Yes, I can agree with that. But we shouldn't be reminded of it by a purely performative proscription of a group which can't justifiably be described as terrorist. Have they attempted to, or threatened to, kill anybody or take hostages? Have they created a serious risk to the health or safety of the public? Were their actions designed to intimidate the public? They are only deemed to be terrorists because in the Terrorism Act the government introduced serious damage to property as one of the defining actions of terrorists -  a test which the UN Security Council resolution does not recognise. Palestine Action has absolutely nothing in common with the 7/7 bombers.

Robert Fish ● 22d

And on the 20th anniversary of 7/7 it’s important that we are reminded of what terrorist organisations can do and why it’s important that our governments do everything possible to stop them. And we should reflect upon what the 21/7 bombers tried to do.

Steve Taylor ● 22d

Q: What was the purpose of damaging and putting out of service 2 RAF voyagers? And just on another note, they are refuelling tankers and not reconnaissance planes, as quoted by  MP Zarah Sultana a few days ago in her chamber speech weeks after the damage was caused.

Julian Pavey ● 23d

“ the problem of the proscription order is not just that it designates Palestine Action as a terrorist organisation, but it also criminalises people who have done no more than protest about the proscription.”This isn’t a problem. It’s a brilliant change to the so called ‘law and order’ we previously enjoyed under Labour. Let’s hope there are many, many more arrests if people don’t adhere to the law or who support terrorist organisations. Likewise I hope to see many more dinghies punctured in France to prevent people from illegally trying to enter the UK and flaunt our laws.

Steve Taylor ● 23d

As for democracy not working,how is it that Reform garnered more votes than the Lib Dems at the last election,but gained 60 odd fewer seats? Whatever your political leanings might be,that is hardly a true reflection of the 'democratic' vote.I didn't vote for any of the(now 3) major parties,but can see how the idea that the result was representative as the lie that it is.

Keith Iddon ● 23d

Whoops! Genocide in Ghana?

Robert Fish ● 23d

Democracy isn't working in this case, because there is no opposition to hold the government accountable. Why? Because, in fear of the right, the government has shamefully borrowed the clothes of the Tories, and, even worse, of Farage. Any intelligent person will recognise that Palestine Action, albeit a militant organisation, whose members cause criminal damage, is not a terrorist organisation in the plain sense of the word. There is no universally agreed definition of terrorism, but UN Security Council 1566 defines it as "criminal acts, including against civilians, committed with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury, or taking of hostages, with the purpose to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, intimidate a population or compel a government or an international organisation to do or to abstain from doing any act". The UK government's much wider definition is clearly designed to stifle protest on an issue it finds embarrassing, namely criticism of its refusal to condemn Israel for the genocide in Ghana, and its unwillingness to stop the export of parts for F35s, despite the fact they are used by Israel to bomb Gaza.As I have to repeat for you to understand, the problem of the proscription order is not just that it designates Palestine Action as a terrorist organisation, but it also criminalises people who have done no more than protest about the proscription. Welcome to authoritarian Britain! If the opposition won't call the government to account, we should be grateful for individuals who are prepared to stand up and be counted.

Robert Fish ● 23d

“Palestine Action is only a terrorist organisation because it has been defined as such in an order made by the government, in the same way as Rwanda was defined as a 'safe' country for asylum-seekers by Act of Parliament”Yes indeed. It’s called Democracy. Get over it. It’s what democratically elected governments do and why opposition parties can hold them accountable. On the anniversary of 7/7 it’s important that we are reminded of what terrorist organisations can do and why it’s important that our governments do everything possible to stop them.

Steve Taylor ● 23d

You display your ignorance of the circumstances of yesterday's arrests. The 29 people were not arrested on suspicion of terrorism, but rather for expressing support for a proscribed terrorist organisation. Palestine Action is only a terrorist organisation because it has been defined as such in an order made by the government, in the same way as Rwanda was defined as a 'safe' country for asylum-seekers by Act of Parliament.There are adequate laws for dealing with criminal damage to property perpetrated by Palestine Action members. Bringing their actions within the scope of anti-terrorism law has unfortunate implications for freedom of speech. Should we be criminalising people who object to the proscription of Palestine Action? Might not the Metropolitan Police be better engaged in tackling the supposed 'crime wave'in Chiswick!

Robert Fish ● 24d

What they should do is confiscate and destroy the outboard motors.

Keith Iddon ● 25d

I have a feeling that the French police puncturing that dinghy was just for the cameras and happens very rarely.

Keith Iddon ● 25d

If you think that arresting people on suspicion of terrorism under the Terrorism Act deems the country to be a Police State, you are more of a moron than previously thought. Starmer received cross party support and the country should be grateful that he is tackling terrorism. He and his government have failed on just about everything else. He should be applauded just as he should be applauded for finally getting the French to stab the dinghies on the French coast preventing more illegal immigrants from invading our shores.

Steve Taylor ● 25d

More than 20 arrests at Palestine Action protest after group banned by government | The Independent https://share.google/TgexWPE1oacGSqs5KShocking! Starmer is turning the UK into a police state.

Robert Fish ● 25d

Using the Terrorism Act to criminalise protest is the first step on the road to authoritarianism. It's depressing to see Starmer copying Trump.Palestine Action promotes civil disobedience and takes direct action against companies and institutions which it believes are being used by Israel to violently enforce apartheid, occupation, colonisation and genocide in Gaza or the West Bank. So far as I am aware, it does not use violence or threats of violence to further its campaign. To define it as "terrorist" because some members have allegedly caused criminal damage to property is a gross abuse of anti-terror legislation. The law is quite capable of dealing with such criminal damage, without resort to bringing it within the scope of terrorist legislation. It's chilling that, after the proscription of Palestine Action, even the expression of support for it may be considered an offence. What about free speech in this country?

Robert Fish ● 26d

So it's not surprising that there should be continued bad feeling about the Nakba and the continued occupation and expansion together with restrictions put upon people who were already living there - many of whom fled from other areas to Gaza..

Philippa Bond ● 31d

“ or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."”His Majesty’s government has no jurisdiction in countries other than those governed by His Majesty’s government.

Steve Taylor ● 32d

Quite simply because we are right now living on just one world which the peoples of ALL religions and none have to share.You should read the Balfour Declaration and the history of the situation surrounding it.  "His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Philippa Bond ● 32d

“He’s not after the release of the hostages so much as the evacuation of Gaza, and resettlement by Israelis.“Well you may as well forget about Gaza then and just ‘go down pub’ because if you believe that Gaza will  be obliterated irrespective of hostage release, what is the point of debating the issue?

Steve Taylor ● 34d

If you don't believe the Israeli state has been subjugating Palestine to one degree or another for many years you really haven't been paying attention.Whether there is any degree of justification for it is arguable,but the current situation has just brought it to a head.

Keith Iddon ● 34d

Yes, I recall that two days ago Trump said he was "annoyed" with Netanyahu for breaking the ceasefire. And then 24 hours later he was praising Netanyahu and calling for the cancellation of his corruption trial. If you seriously think that this inconstant and capricious man is going to lean on Netanyahu, you're sadly mistaken.Look as well at what Israeli ministers are saying about Gaza. See Ben Gvir's comment today about reimposing a total blockade on aid. He's not after the release of the hostages so much as the evacuation of Gaza, and resettlement by Israelis.

Robert Fish ● 34d

Trump is ‘currently’ extremely annoyed with Netanyahu so now is the time to do it!  If the hostages aren’t released Palestinians will starve to death while Starmer and his mates just look on.

Steve Taylor ● 34d

Releasing the hostages as a prelude to negotiation would be a futile gesture.  Hamas must be aware of the fact that releasing the hostages will guarantee neither the release of Palestinian detainees nor the end of death and destruction in Gaza. Netanyahu doesn't give a damn about the hostages. For him they're just another pretext for his strategy of war without end. Your idea that the world would "force Netanyahu to behave like a human" after the release of the hostages is a joke, at least so long as Trump remains US President.

Robert Fish ● 34d

It is you who have your head stuck somewhere, Philippa.  What I said was that the first step to get the world to force Netanyahu to behave like a human is to have Hamas release the Israeli hostages. Once they do that you can talk about the Palestinians who have been arrested and detained without trial. That’s another story which needs thorough investigation to understand what alleged crimes they have committed. The Israelis held hostage by Hamas have committed no crime as far as I know. They are purely political hostages and must be released as a first step to negotiations on peace. The whole western wants them released., not just me. Get over it. Not sure why you can’t accept it.

Steve Taylor ● 34d

Steve Taylor - you are not the whole world.  Get used to it.  I never said that the release of hostages was not a good idea.  It is not just the hugely publicised hostages who need releasing it is the Palestinians who not only have been arrested and held without charge but whose lands are still being taken and colonised illegally and who are under occupation and have no freedom of movement.  It is too late for all those Palestinians who are just shot for no reason or for just needing food and water aid.Take your head out of the sand.www.btselem.org

Philippa Bond ● 34d

It’s a good enough answer for the whole world, Phillips. If it’s not good enough for you, tough, but I’m shocked that you don’t believe the release of all Israeli hostages isn’t a great idea and why you don’t think it will put Netanyahu on the spot and why the world won’t start putting some pressure on him to allow aid to the Palestinians?

Steve Taylor ● 36d

Whatever 'reason' they had for taking them, it might prevent further attacks if they now release them.

Janice Evans ● 36d

The situation wasn't right before the hostages were taken therefore your answer just isn't good enough.

Philippa Bond ● 36d

Hence Hamas must simply release the hostages and Netanyahu won’t have a leg to stand on.

Steve Taylor ● 36d

Yep. And it will continue until Hamas releases the hostages.

Steve Taylor ● 37d

https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/06/1164761

Robert Fish ● 37d

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/06/03/middleeast/gaza-aid-distribution-deadly-what-to-know-latam-intlAgain and again those seeking food aid are shot at.

Philippa Bond ● 38d

And all Netanyahu has to do is to return to the ceasefire and negotiate further exchanges of hostages for Palestinians. Do you seriously think that, if Hamas unilaterally releases all the remaining hostages, the destruction and the massacres in Gaza will cease? Netanyahu is set on prolonging hostilities, for the sake of his own survival and avoidance of justice. The hostages' families know he doesn't give a damn about them.

Robert Fish ● 38d

If, as Trump claims, the US strikes on Iran's nuclear facilities have 'completely and totally obliterated' them, why, given that Netanyahu's pretext for attacking Iran was the elimination of those facilities, is Israel still bombing Iran?  I guess you might reply that it still needs to knock out missile sites, in case of Iranian reprisals. But it's mighty convenient that it provides an excuse for endless war, which Netanyahu needs to keep Ben-Gvir amd Smotrich happy, and stop them from bringing down his government, which would inevitably lead to his having to face justice. Israel's policies are driven not by an honest assessment of what is in the country's best interests, but rather by Netanyahu's personal interests.

Robert Fish ● 38d

“ On 20 January Haaretz's diplomatic correspondent commented that Netanyahu was 'lying to Trump and preparing to sabotage the Gaza cease-fire deal.' He was not wrong.”So all Hamas had to do, and still can do, is release all hostages unconditionally and Netanyahu will have to capitulate. The world will then have no reason to support him in Gaza and if Trump destroys Iran’s nuclear capability the world can focus on bringing Netanyahu to justice.

Steve Taylor ● 38d

When the last group of hostages weren't released the last group of Palestinians held in detention weren't released either.It isn't all about the hostages from the 7 October.

Philippa Bond ● 38d

Everything could have changed if Israel hadn't quite deliberately collapsed the ceasefire deal on 18th March. Under the deal, 30 hostages were returned to Israel between 19 January and 27 February. There were supposed to be three phases to the deal, each of 42 days, but Netanyahu never made any attempt to negotiate terms for phase 2. On 20 January Haaretz's diplomatic correspondent commented that Netanyahu was 'lying to Trump and preparing to sabotage the Gaza cease-fire deal.' He was not wrong.

Robert Fish ● 38d

It’s not a matter of taking me seriously. You just have to be aware of the facts and take Israel and Trump seriously. Otherwise you can just bleat on and on about Gaza on this thread because nothing will change whilst the hostages are locked away and Starmer is in No.10. 

Steve Taylor ● 38d

'Release the hostages and ...the world will be forced to take action against Israel'.'Trump will take credit for achieving peace in the Middle East once Iran is neutralised.'Hahahahaha! It's impossible to take you seriously.

Robert Fish ● 38d

Well you don’t know that do you? Your prejudices preclude you from thinking logically. Release the hostages and you’ll have your answer and the world will be forced to take action against Israel especially if the nuclear facilities in Iran are destroyed by then. Trump will take credit for achieving peace in the Middle East once Iran is neutralised.

Steve Taylor ● 38d

'Israel is fighting hard for peace' - you must be joking! Netanyahu is promoting perpetual war because, if it ends, his coalition will fall, and he'll lose his ability to influence the criminal proceedings against him. The continuation of the destruction of Gaza and the seemingly deliberate use of the GHF to spark daily massacres of desperate people have the benefit of keeping on side Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, who look to the ethnic cleansing and resettlement of Gaza. If you think it's about the release of hostages, you are sadly mistaken.

Robert Fish ● 38d

Israel is fighting hard for peace in the Middle East. The hostages MUST be release as a prerequisite to negotiations. The ball is entirely in Hamas’ court. If the hostages are released, Israel will have no excuses to continue its war on the Palestinian people. The hostage situation is the main, if not, only reason for the western world to continue to support Israel.

Steve Taylor ● 38d

It isn't just the hostages that are being held but there are also others who have been arrested and held without charge and who aren't criminals.https://www.btselem.org/Iran is another distraction.

Philippa Bond ● 39d

If there were ever any doubt about genocide in Gaza, it has been dispelled by the Israeli government's actions since it broke the ceasefire on 18th March, by the statements of Israeli Ministers, and particularly by the daily massacres of Palestinians since Israel made GHF solely responsible for aid distribution in Gaza. The mowing down of unarmed Palestinians approaching the distribution centres has become such a regular occurrence that one has to wonder whether the GHF distribution points were set up only in the South and central parts of the strip to encourage the displacement of inhabitants, or, more sinisterly, to serve as a lure and trap for Hamas terrorists. The near-daily massacres have killed over 400 Palestinians in the last three weeks. What sort of monstrous military mows down desperate people rushing to grab food aid? Sadly the world's attention has switched to the deadly war with Iran which the criminal Netanyahu started almost a week ago, and in the midst of concerns about the possibility of a wider war, it's easy to overlook the sufferings of Gaza. So long as Trump is US President, there's not a lot the UK can do to stop Israel's cruelty in Gaza, or its 21st century imperialism, as demonstrated by its willingness to attack or invade neighbouring countries. But we can write to Andy Slaughter, who incidentally is vice-chair of the Palestine APP group, and ask him to press Ministers not to allow UK forces to join in the air defence of Israel, and certainly not to permit the use of British bases (whether on Cyprus or Diego Garcia) if the US decides to join in the bombing of Iranian nuclear sites. Netanyahu has to realise that his military adventures and his lack of respect for international law disqualify him for any support from the UK.The really shameful aspect of the UK's position on Gaza and Iran seems to be that moral qualms are subservient to unwillingness to criticise the thin-skinned narcissist who sees himself as king of the world.Andy Slaughter's email address is: andy.slaughter.mp@parliament.uk

Robert Fish ● 40d

Lammy doesn't dare too far, as Trump will be very cross indeed if he does

Davey Harris ● 114d

Tiptoeing around Trump?Interesting that the killing of all those medics has now been admitted following the film of their vehicles with very obvious lights.

Philippa Bond ● 115d

Lammy says this is 'unacceptable'. Is that the best he can do? Why no condemnation of the genocide in Gaza (and the West Bank)?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn9133z2v30o

Robert Fish ● 115d

Assad's regime has fallen. He has disappeared. Apparently his getaway plane may have crashed.

Steve Taylor ● 234d

Agree with Keith.

Janice Evans ● 234d

Much more could have been achieved with a less hasty and diisorganised exit from Afghanistan but I don't think that was our fault.  Didn't Russia train its troops in Syria?  They certainly flattened a lot of it.

Philippa Bond ● 235d

We all know that Steve,but Afghanistan is a real lesson in how much influence we have,including the USA and all the other western countries have when they get involved in the politics and every day life of countries where there is no democratic tradition and our historical values are not theirs.History strongly suggests that any revolution or lasting regime change that leads to the improvemnet of life for its people has to come from within,from people rising up against their oppressors and finding their own way that suits their traditions,not from without.

Keith Iddon ● 235d

Afghanistan like Gaza a lost cause. Time to move on. The world doesn’t care about those places. People became too obsessed with calling interested and caring people anti semitic instead of working together to tackle the problem. And others in government trying to score political points by declaring Islamophobia and trying to stir up racial hatred. Waste of time now. There is no hope. Syria is a new and fresh challenge.

Steve Taylor ● 235d

20 odd years in Afghanistan to achieve not a lot.

Keith Iddon ● 235d

Yes they will. They already are. And the UK should have a special interest in stabilising the region to stop refugees claiming political asylum.

Steve Taylor ● 235d

I don't think any Western Government will want to be getting involved in the internal machinations of Syrian politics anytime soon.

David Burke ● 235d

Forget Gaza. It’s a lost cause. No western world country is interested in confrontation with Israel, except South Africa, who stood up defiantly for the Palestinians in Court but achieved nothing. The Gaza conflict has been ongoing for decades with no progress. It’s at the point of no return. More importantly now is achieving stability in Syria and stopping the suffering there. The quicker the situation in Syria is resolved the better for Europe as it will stop the flow of Asylum Seekers. The focus must now be  on Syria.

Steve Taylor ● 235d

If Taylor had to add to his list of one person whose posts he does not read then it would make his navigating of this forum to maintain his pretence even more taxing than his limited intelligence is already finding it.

Paul Campbell ● 236d

Haha, Alastair! There's no way any contrary view cuts through that resistant carapace of his, so it probably wouldn't make any difference if he didn't read my posts.

Robert Fish ● 236d

Careful Robert or you’ll be joining Paul on Steve’s list of ‘people whose posts I don’t read’ and you wouldn’t want that, would you :-)

Alastair Banton ● 236d

Abuse? I criticise your unfortunate comment and you resort to personal abuse. If you are not an anti-Semite, why do you repeatedly attribute blame for the horrors of Gaza on "the Jews", even when your use of language is questioned? You had the opportunity to explain yourself, and to correct me if I misunderstood your motives, but you merely doubled down on your defamation. I conclude therefore I was not under any misapprehension, and you are indeed an anti-Semite.

Robert Fish ● 236d

I am not an anti semite, Fish, but go ahead with your abuse. I don’t give a toss what you think in your warped mind or what you hope to achieve with your abuse.  Now go way and try to have a nice day in your otherwise miserable life. End of.

Steve Taylor ● 236d

starving them, the ones who were stealing all the food.

Janice Evans ● 236d

Don't be silly - be honest! It's not finding the murder and starvation of Palestinians in Gaza unacceptable and abhorrent that marks you out as an anti-Semite. It's the fact you keep on blaming "the Jews" for it, and resort to cheap sophistry to justify your brazen prejudice.

Robert Fish ● 236d

So by your warped logic, Fish, anyone who finds the murder and starvation of Palestinians in Gaza as unacceptable and abhorrent, is anti-Semitic. You have truly lost the plot old man.

Steve Taylor ● 236d

It will stay that way in every instance

Paul Campbell ● 236d

Exactly and in this instance it will stay that way.

Julian Pavey ● 236d

Is it remotely surprising that Taylor is an anti-semite? The more these people post the more they reveal themselves.

Paul Campbell ● 236d

Julian, you do an excellent job of keeping your superior knowledge and intelligence hidden from all.

Paul Campbell ● 236d

You could justifiably have accused the Netanyahu government. You could have accused Israel. But you didn't. You accused "the Jews".

Robert Fish ● 236d

Who is starving the Palestinians in Gaza? Is Netanyahu personally starving them ?

Steve Taylor ● 236d

I gave you an opportunity to explain. I now know what to think. It wasn't just infelicitous phrasing on your part when you referred to the Jews starving Palestinians to death. It was unashamed antisemitism.

Robert Fish ● 237d

That's where your wrong but hey ho, you know everything don't you Robert, the smart arse of the forum and your counterargument to me is just that, shut someone down as being not capable of articulating an intelligible argument. But the issue is you are wrong, on this, I'm very smart, indeed smarter and more knowledgeable than you on this whole issue, the only thing I'm not good at is pure grammar, that is all but you shout away. But I'm not going to argue back because I have good reasons to know much and most likely more than you do on this subject but I'm not going to say on this public forum as to why. But you carry on. No one is listening to you or perhaps believing you. Ever thought about that> "Does no one care?"  Not when you're at the helm. lila tov

Julian Pavey ● 237d

Now you are just being ridiculous. Good night you very confused person

Steve Taylor ● 237d

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I'm not disputing the fact that Netanyahu's cabinet is made up of Jews. The problem is the syllogism you employ: Netanyahu's government is responsible for the genocide in Gaza, all members of the government are Jews, and therefore all Jews are implicitly responsible for the genocide. If that's not the implication of your comments, please say so, and I'll happily apologise. But if you continue to employ sophistry to justify your position, I'll assume the worst.

Robert Fish ● 237d

Yawn. It’s fact not sophistry but it doesn’t sink n with you does it?

Steve Taylor ● 237d

I wouldn't expect you; to understand the issues, or to be capable of articulating an intelligible argument if you don't agree.

Robert Fish ● 237d

You have previously deployed this shameless sophistry: the members of Netanyahu's government are all Jews, ergo Jews are responsible for the genocide in Gaza.

Robert Fish ● 237d

Does no-one care?Oh well,one managed to get Janice and steve onboard,its a start i guess but then maybe most just dont agree.As to philippa,ever come accross Otzma Yehudit ? They and its supporters call it genocide,but then they would.

Julian Pavey ● 237d

Aren’t they Jews, Fish? Are there any Christians or Muslims in Netanyahu’s government? What a stupid old man you are.

Steve Taylor ● 237d

You are contemptible, Taylor. You use a criticism of a general failure to stop the genocide into an opportunity to further your obsessive hatred of Starmer and vent your antisemitism at the same time. It's not the Jews who are trying to exterminate the population of Gaza, it's Netanyahu's government.

Robert Fish ● 237d

It isn’t about Sunak. He’s history. A lot has happened since Sunak’s premiership. It’s about Starmer who flew to Washington and gave undying support to the demented Biden giving full support to the Netanyahu. Starmer has watched things deteriorate as the Jews starve Palestinians to death and Netanyahu is declared a war criminal. Starmer has done nothing.

Steve Taylor ● 237d

Conflicted because of religious beliefs? He's the Prime Minister of Britain for goodness sake.He should put his own prejudices to one side and do the right thing.

Keith Iddon ● 237d

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240430-yes-it-is-genocide-in-gaza-says-israeli-professor-of-holocaust-studies/

Philippa Bond ● 237d

Is he not rather conflicted considering his family's religious beliefs?

Philippa Bond ● 237d

I didn't see Sunak going toe to toe with him  either.

Keith Iddon ● 237d

We aren’t talking about Trump and Putin. We’re talking about the weak Starmer not standing up to Netanyahu. Is he just weak or is he in full support of the Jews  in their quest to wipe out Palestinians?

Steve Taylor ● 237d

We have done that, I thought

Janice Evans ● 237d

If there's no such thing as a moral foreign policy, but only realpolitik, then why indeed? But "offer support and not take sides"? That involves some logical confusion.

Robert Fish ● 237d

Why should it be up to the West to tell others what to do, we can only offersupport and not take sides.

Janice Evans ● 237d

You keep repeating that Starmer is weak, the UK. has very little influence over a depot like Netanyahu. If anyone is weak it will be shown to be Trump when he meets up with Putin, who definitely has something on him.

David Burke ● 237d

We have a weak leader in Starmer who refused to do anything and now he will suck up to Trump like no other PM has sucked up to the USA. Gaza hasn’t been betrayed by the west at all. The West promised nothing so there was nothing to betray. There was no deception. The West simply ignored the issues and allowed the Jews to continue to murder at will. The support for Netanyahu wasn’t done discretely either. Netanyahu received applause and standing ovations in the USA.

Steve Taylor ● 237d

Gaza has been betrayed by the West, and now Trump is likely to betray Ukraine. So much for Western morality!

Robert Fish ● 237d

Unsurprisingly, the report concludes that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza:'Amnesty International’s research has found sufficient basis to conclude that Israel has committed and is continuing to commit genocide against Palestinians in the occupied Gaza Strip, the organization said in a landmark new report published today.  'The report, ‘You Feel Like You Are Subhuman’: Israel’s Genocide Against Palestinians in Gaza, documents how, during its military offensive launched in the wake of the deadly Hamas-led attacks in southern Israel on 7 October 2023, Israel has unleashed hell and destruction on Palestinians in Gaza brazenly, continuously and with total impunity.  '“Amnesty International’s report demonstrates that Israel has carried out acts prohibited under the Genocide Convention, with the specific intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza. These acts include killings, causing serious bodily or mental harm and deliberately inflicting on Palestinians in Gaza conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction. Month after month, Israel has treated Palestinians in Gaza as a subhuman group unworthy of human rights and dignity, demonstrating its intent to physically destroy them,” said Agnès Callamard, Secretary General of Amnesty International.  '“Our damning findings must serve as a wake-up call to the international community: this is genocide. It must stop now. '“States that continue to transfer arms to Israel at this time must know they are violating their obligation to prevent genocide and are at risk of becoming complicit in genocide. All states with influence over Israel, particularly key arms suppliers like the USA and Germany, but also other EU member states, the UK and others, must act now to bring Israel’s atrocities against Palestinians in Gaza to an immediate end.”'Biden leaves the Presidency with an appalling stain on his record, because of his wilful refusal to rein in the murderous Netanyahu.

Robert Fish ● 237d

How profound. If only we had a leader who could demonstrate such leadership. “ We're now hearing from US President Joe Biden, who says "far too many civilians have suffered during this year of conflict", one year on from the Hamas attacks on 7 October.”

Steve Taylor ● 296d

It is genocide but most world leaders have made it clear that they don’t care. Only South Africa had the guts to make a strong case in Court.

Steve Taylor ● 354d

A couple more reminders of the crimes committed/permitted by the Netanyahu administration. I fail to see how anyone can seriously argue that the actions of the IDF and of Israli settlers don't amount to genocide.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8erk37yn2nohttps://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/10/the-demolitions-are-equal-to-death-the-palestinian-families-whose-west-bank-homes-have-been-bulldozedAnd look at how protest is illegally stifled in Israel:https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-06/ty-article/.premium/city-police-chief-accused-of-assaulting-anti-netanyahu-demonstrators-abusing-power/00000191-274f-d642-a9d5-b74f78a40000

Robert Fish ● 354d

I fear you're right. The only hope is that Kamala Harris is on a roll, and manages to pip Trump at the post in November. If she doesn't, Gaza will only be one amongst a multitude of headaches.

Robert Fish ● 366d

Considering that Netanyahu received a standing ovation from Congress I don’t see any pressure on him from the USA unfortunately.  And when Trump becomes president Netanyahu will receive even more support.

Steve Taylor ● 366d

Since 7th October, nearly all the atrocities have come from the Israeli side, and that's why I concentrate on them. Hamas aren't currently killing Israelis in numbers, nor destroying their houses (although they will ultimately have to face a day of reckoning for 7th October). There have not been 75 years of "ongoing hostilities against the state of Israel".  There have been several short-term outbreaks of war, not all of them initiated by Israel's neighbours (think Suez, for example). That there has been ongoing hostility (singular) is undeniable. But that might well have abated by now, were it not for the oppressive colonialism of successive Israeli governments, which have made no attempt to placate their neighbours. Indeed, the oppression has only become worse. The dispossessions in the West Bank and the settler violence are indelible stains on Israeli society. Majdal Shams may just have been an unfortunate accident  (the jury is out on this) but the many times greater deaths in Gaza are the result of a deliberate policy of visiting wholesale death and destruction on a captive population. There is no moral equivalence between Hezbollah's violence, inexcusable as it is, and that of the Israeli government.

Robert Fish ● 366d

Since October 8th the atrocities have been coming thick and fast from the Israeli side. A lower estimate of the number of children killed in Gaza by Israeli actions is 8000+.

Andrew Jones ● 366d

No, Robert, I just thought that atrocities were worthy of mention whichever side perpetrated them whereas you concentrate only on those coming from the Israeli side. And you ignore 75 years of ongoing hostilities against the state of Israel.

Richard Greenhough ● 366d

Yes, Richard - more of your whataboutery! In your eagerness to distract from the sins of the Netanyahu administration, you ignore all context. The deaths of the youngsters at Majdal Shams were indeed appalling, and an Iranian-made rocket seems to have caused them. But you ignore the issue of whether the attack on the football pitch was deliberate, whether the rocket went astray, or whether it was brought down by the Israeli Iron Dome. You also ignore the history of the tit-for-tat rocket attacks, which have led to more deaths in Lebanon than in Israel and the Golan. You prefer to see Majdal Shams as an isolated incident, without previous history, to justify Israeli reprisals, in the same way that you consider the Hamas atrocity as the starting point for all the  slaughter in Gaza. You ignore 75 years of cruel colonial repression.Israelis understand better than you the cruel vindictiveness of their Prime Minister. See this article from Haaretz:https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-28/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-delays-evacuation-of-sick-wounded-children-from-gaza-to-uae-after-golan-attack/00000190-fab3-d5ef-a5fe-fabf8c750000

Robert Fish ● 366d

No comment on the Hezbollah attack on the town of Majdal Shams which killed twelve children and teenagers from the Druze community, Robert ?

Richard Greenhough ● 366d

Julian, I can't figure out the reason for your curiously empty post. It can't be a simple error, because it would necessitate hitting 'submit' twice. However, it's a valuable reminder of the situation in Gaza, at a time when the news is dominated by Kamala Harris, the UK £20bn black hole and the Olympics. Meanwhile Netanyahu continues to rain death and destruction on Gaza. It's clear he has no intention to negotiate the release of the Israeli hostages, and won't stop until there's not a man, woman or child left alive in Gaza, nor any building left standing. It's a frightening thought that it's in Netanyahu's personal interest to continue pursuing the war, so as to defer his day of judgement, and for that reason he could trigger off full-scale conflict with Hezbollah. Who can stop him? Not the 70% of Israelis who oppose him, nor Biden, with his massive moral blind spot where Israel is concerned.

Robert Fish ● 366d

,

Julian Pavey ● 367d

Nope. Starmer was 100% adamant that during his 60 minute meeting with Biden    (it was only scheduled to be 45 minutes) it was 100% clear to him that Biden was lucid and coherent.  Clearly Starmer is just playing politics so will do nothing to try to push Biden to do something about the Israeli atrocities. He is just sucking up to Biden when the world can see that Biden has lost the plot. It will be interesting to see who Starmer appoints as Ambassador. Milliband or ????  It will be a political appointee whoever it is rather than a career diplomat so strings will be pulled. No hope for Gaza under Starmer.

Steve Taylor ● 382d

Today at least 70 people have been killed and 300 injured in an Israeli attack on Khan Younis. All this shocking 'collateral damage' and it's not even clear that the IDF took out its target, the Hamas military chief, Mohammed Deif.Meanwhile the news is all about Biden's competence, rather than his massive moral failing. How much longer will he sit on his hands, nay worse, continue to arm the murderous Netanyahu government? Will Starmer at last start to put some distance between us and the US over Gaza? It is at least encouraging that the new government has indicated that it will cease to challenge the ICC arrest warrant for Netanyahu.

Robert Fish ● 382d

“ We are all shamed by the government's willingness to turn a blind eye to atrocities.”We are more shamed by our wannabe PM, Keir Stammer, having nothing more to say than a pathetic “they must stop”.  Some leadership. Why is it that every question asked of him he morphs into his ‘frightened deer in headlights’ mode?

Steve Taylor ● 428d

An interesting point of view:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upmrOAwfSsU

Philippa Bond ● 429d

This is an FCDO spokesman's comment on today's horrendous bombing of the camp for displaced persons in Rafah:"The UK is clear that we do not support a major military operation in Rafah without a plan to protect the hundreds of thousands of civilians who remain there."The fastest way to end the conflict is to secure a deal which gets the hostages out and allows for a pause in the fighting in Gaza. We must then work with our international partners to turn that pause into a long term sustainable ceasefire."So are they implying that the level of violence in Rafah hasn't yet reached that of a major military operation which they would be unable to support? If not, why are they not condemning this outrage in the strongest terms, as Macron has done? And what chance of securing a deal to get the hostages out after today's events? We are all shamed by the government's willingness to turn a blind eye to atrocities.

Robert Fish ● 429d

And, as one might expect from a President with a moral blind-spot where Israel is concerned, Biden has also called the decision outrageous. More trouble on campuses?

Robert Fish ● 436d

Sadly, there is little sign of penitence or self-awareness  in the reactions of Israeli politicians.President Herzog: "The announcement of the prosecutor at the ICC is beyond outrageous, and shows the extent to which the international judicial system is in danger of collapsing."Taken in bad faith, this one-sided move represents a unilateral political step that emboldens terrorists around the world, and violates all the basic rules of the court according to the principle of complementarity and other legal norms."The Foreign Minister: "A historic disgrace that will be remembered forever".The Finance Minister: the decision will be “the last nail in the dismantling of this political and antisemitic court."As usual, the response to criticism is an attempt to discredit the critics by smearing them with accusations of antisemitism.

Robert Fish ● 436d

I doubt any Iranians would be drinking alcohol. Israelis yes

Steve Taylor ● 436d

Good to see iranians and Israelis both waving flags together,singing and dancing together and even bubbly being splashed around outside the iranian embassy last night.

Julian Pavey ● 436d

And israeli defence minister Yoav Gallant. Also Hamas leaders Mohammed Diab Ibrahim al Masri, more commonly known as Deif (commander-in-Chief of the military wing of Hamas, known as the al Qassam Brigades), and Ismail Haniyeh (head of Hamas's political bureau) are also in the warants being seeked for  alleged war crimes.

Julian Pavey ● 436d

“ ICC seeking arrest warrant against Israel PM Netanyahu over alleged Gaza war crimes”

Steve Taylor ● 436d

First no foreign language international correspondents and now Al Jazeera banned.  About 100 journalists have already lost their lives in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories documenting what is happening.

Philippa Bond ● 450d

Which channel please, Adrian?

Keith Iddon ● 453d

Sorry...just notided the heading.duh...

Keith Iddon ● 453d

Isobel Yeung investigates the conduct of the Israeli military in the West Bank.Tough viewing but well worth a look if you are interested in some insight to what is going on. Available on Freeview catchup

Adrian Irving ● 453d

Ah yes, plucky little Israel surrounded by hostile neighbours who want to wipe her off the face of the earth. A far cry from the reality of the arrogant, and much better armed, colonialist bully. Your knowledge of the 1956 hostilities is somewhat deficient. No-one attacked Israel. Israel invaded Sinai and the Gaza strip, and was joined in an attack on Egypt by France and Britain, in an attempt to seize control of the Suez Canal after Nasser's nationalisation of it. In the early days of his Presidency Nasser tried to reach peace with Israel and had worked to prevent cross-border Palestinian attacks. However, in February 1955 the Israelis conducted a raid on the Egyptian Army headquarters in Gaza (does that ring a bell - Damascus?) in retaliation for a Palestinian fedayeen attack that killed an Israeli civilian. In response Nasser started to permit further fedayeen attacks. But the aggressor in 1956 was most certainly Israel, and even then the Israelis had overwhelming forces which allowed them to be contemptuous of their neighbours. I'm surprised you didn't know this, Richard.

Robert Fish ● 463d

“ Wasn't yesterday the anniversary of the British army entering Bergen-Belsen?  Isn't the idea that this horror should never be forgotten and never repeated? ”Yes indeed, and it would seem that Israel has learnt nothing from this and are intent on continuing their abhorrent behaviour.

Steve Taylor ● 463d

😅

Janice Evans ● 463d

Truly excellent post Richard.Unfortunately it has fallen on deaf ears.

Denis Ian Fox ● 463d

"Then why do so many think the U.K can stop Israel or anyone for that matter.”Do they?  Isn't it more that the UK shouldn't condone all Israel's actions?Wasn't yesterday the anniversary of the British army entering Bergen-Belsen?  Isn't the idea that this horror should never be forgotten and never repeated?

Philippa Bond ● 463d

It's not the case that many people think the UK can stop Israel. The US clearly has much more leverage, as a result of the arms it supplies to Israel and the massive amount of aid it provides. But Biden continues to send arms to Israel. He is complicit in war crimes.

Robert Fish ● 463d

Unfortunately, asking Silly Steve to think is a lost cause.

Richard Greenhough ● 463d

Does that mean that we will no longer have the opportunity to learn from your deep knowledge of the peaceful intentions of Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and Iran, Mr Taylor?

Roger Talbot ● 463d

“ Then why do so many think the U.K can stop Israel or anyone for that matter.”They don’t. It’s a lost cause. Israel will continue to bully and kill innocent people. It’s a damaged nation. The apartheid regime had nothing on what Israel is now doing. Focus on Ukraine. It can still be saved.

Steve Taylor ● 463d

Once again, Silly Steve shows his ignorance. Israel was attacked by its neighbours in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973. None of those neighbours acted "reasonably" in that time, making it clear that their aim was to wipe Israel off the map. Since then, peace agreements have been reached with two of those neighbours, Egypt and Jordan, and Saudi Arabia was well on the way to progressing an agreement before the Hamas terrorist attacks last October. Iran, mostly acting through its proxies in Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Yemen, has continued to seek the obliteration of the state of Israel, and until there is regime change in Teheran, things are unlikely to change for the better. The suffering citizens of Gaza have no hope of improvement while the Hamas terrorists control the territory; they were regularly firing rockets into Israel long before they launched their murderous raid in October. If the Palestinians could install a leadership prepared to negotiate a two-state solution then the West would pressure Israel to negotiate towards that end.

Richard Greenhough ● 463d

Then why do so many think the U.K can stop Israel or anyone for that matter.

Janice Evans ● 463d

It’s 100% clear that Israel will never back down and try to make peace. The mindset prevents it. They have had 75 years to try to act reasonably but they won’t. It’s astounding especially after all the suffering of the Jews in WW2.  One would think there would be some understanding and compassion but we see only arrogance. Best to focus on helping Ukraine because it’s a waste of energy trying to understand the Israeli mentality. The abused became the abuser and nothing will change that.

Steve Taylor ● 464d

One thing which is clear for the world to see is that Silly Steve is becoming more incoherent and imbecilic by the day. Surely this old fool should now be forcibly removed from CW4.

Richard Greenhough ● 475d

One thing which is clear for the world to see is that Biden is becoming more incoherent and imbecilic by the day. Surely this old fool should now be forcibly removed from the White House.

Steve Taylor ● 475d

I think most people are able to work out what is really happening at the moment, Jayne.

Stewart Jones ● 481d

You should read First They Came by Pastor Martin Niemoller.

Philippa Bond ● 481d

You can’t simplify a very complex situation, none of us truly understand what is going on other than the extreme stories that leak out. There is a lot more going on from both sides

Jayne Thorburn ● 481d

No to all, Robert. The point I was making was that criticism by Biden and Cameron is sheer hypocrisy.

Roger Talbot ● 481d

Who took no notice or not enough notice of the information of the Watchers?  Isn't that what a lot of this is about?It is looking very like a re-run of the 1947 ethnic cleansing.

Philippa Bond ● 482d

Oh, and it’s a shame the Israeli intelligence, services, whether it be IDF or some other intelligence body failed to react to what was planned for October 7th, and didn’t manage to stop the slaughter of Israelis and taking of hostages there and then.

Andrew Jones ● 482d

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/10/im-so-scared-please-come-hind-rajab-six-found-dead-in-gaza-12-days-after-cry-for-helpIt was a long and terrifying wait for her as the last survivor in that car and the Red Crescent ambulance which had also been in touch with the IDF over their route to her rescue was also completely destroyed.

Philippa Bond ● 482d

Why is killing the aid workers unforgivable, while killing tens of thousands of children, innocent men and women (presumably) forgivable in your book?

Andrew Jones ● 482d

I think the big challenge is Hamas hide with families, schools, hospitals etc. plus of course they have this huge tunnel city so it is extremely difficult for the IDF to find them. In reality do they know who Hamas members are versus sympathisers. My guess is that the innocent Palestinians are too terrified not to hide Hamas members otherwise they get shot. It’s an appalling situation and the aid workers was unforgivable. According to the news IDF had intelligence that Hamas members were travelling in the convoy but changed their minds at the last minute. There needs to be much closer communication between aid and IDF.

Jayne Thorburn ● 482d

It was reported that Hamas had taken all the food and was why they had to go in.

Janice Evans ● 482d

Perhaps they do, however it puts to bed the lie that the policy of the IDF is trying to minimise civilian casualties. I have no doubt by the way that the reports of warnings to buildings that are about to be targeted are true, so I wouldn't say that the IDF aren't attempting (in some cases) to reduce innocent lives being lost.What is going to be the final ratio of innocent Palestinians killed by Israel in this conflict compared to the number of innocent Israelis slaughtered on Oct 7th? 100:1? 250:1?It is a collective punishment being enacted on the Palestinians by Israel, not too dissimilar to may incidents in WW2 (albeit on a longer timescale)

Andrew Jones ● 482d

Would you consider deliberate targeting of children by snipers as acceptable collateral damage? Or deliberate targeting of aid Vehicles? Is deliberate starvation of the civilian population merely collateral damage?

Robert Fish ● 482d

Every country at war accepts the deaths of innocent civilians as "collateral damage", Andrew, whether they're doling it out or on the receiving end. And I doubt that the IDF are enjoying the international criticism they're getting over their latest fiasco.And considering the deliberate war crimes and "accidents" in recent history committed by the Americans in Vietnam and Afghanistan and elsewhere and by the British in Malaya and Afghanistan and elsewhere, it hardly behoves Biden and our own poltroon Cameron to shed crocodile tears over what has been going on in Gaza.

Roger Talbot ● 482d

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes

Andrew Jones ● 483d

Yes, there have been so many horrors perpetrated since the death of that poor little girl, that I'd even forgotten about her. Thank you for reminding me, Philippa.

Robert Fish ● 484d

Thanks Julian.

Andrew Jones ● 484d

It was NOT started on 7 October!And what about the killing of Hind Rajab?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-juOt-N_Js&list=PL3ZQ5CpNulQlZ4gLLCiJptA85Ts4wVvSC&index=3

Philippa Bond ● 484d

Reply to S.Edwards.

David Burke ● 484d

Israel doesn't allow foreign journalists into Gaza yet you've got first hand knowledge of what's going on there.Pathetic excuse for a human being.

David Burke ● 484d

"Unlike Hamas the IDF do not target civilians." Tell that to the children shot by snipers in both Gaza and the West Bank. This isn't collateral damage from the pounding of Hamas. It is targeted, cold-blooded killing of juveniles.

Robert Fish ● 484d

"Neither the fascist enemy and its arrogant leadership... nor its supporters... can take their prisoners alive without an exchange and negotiation and meeting the demands of the resistance," Abu Obeida, spokesman for Hamas's armed wing, said in a televised broadcast, referring to the release of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel."We have no choice but to fight this barbaric occupier in every neighbourhood, street and alley," he said.Hamas demands"In the first 45-day phase, Hamas would release all remaining women and children, as well as older and sick men, in exchange for an unspecified number of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel. Israel would also withdraw from populated areas, cease aerial operations, allow far more aid to enter and permit Palestinians to return to their homes, including in devastated northern Gaza.""The second phase, to be negotiated during the first, would include the release of all remaining hostages, mostly soldiers, in exchange for all Palestinian detainees over the age of 50, including senior militants. Israel would release an additional 1,500 prisoners, 500 of whom would be specified by Hamas, and complete its withdrawal from Gaza.""In the third phase, the sides would exchange the remains of hostages and prisoners."Netanyahu said"military pressure was the best way to free the roughly 100 hostages held in captivity in the Gaza Strip, where they were taken after Hamas’ cross-border rampage into southern Israel on Oct. 7, which sparked the war.""Israel has made destroying Hamas’ governing and military abilities one of its wartime objectives, and Hamas’ proposal would effectively leave it in power in Gaza and allow it to rebuild its military capabilities.""Surrendering to Hamas’ delusional demands that we heard now not only won’t lead to freeing the captives, it will just invite another massacre,” Netanyahu said in a nationally televised evening news conference"

Julian Pavey ● 484d

What are the “arrogant terms demanded by Hamas” that you speak of? I imagine you have no idea in truth.

Andrew Jones ● 484d

It's called war. One started by the genocidal Islamist terrorists of Hamas murdering, torturing and sexually abusing civilians in Israel.  On the same day they also took hostages, overwhelmingly civilians. Both constitute war crimes. Israel has every right to defend itself & to eliminate Hamas. Unlike Hamas the IDF do not target civilians. It is Hamas which has terrorized the civilian population of Gaza since they won an election in 2005, killed all their Palestinian opponents & anyone who dared not to conform to their perverted world view, including women & gay men, established a Islamist dictatorship and destroyed what was a thriving economy. They shamelessly use civilians as human shields, including school children and hospital patients. Negotiations HAVE been taking place to free the hostages and end the war; it is the arrogant terms demanded by the Hamas leadership which are preventing any kind of deal being achieved. I hope that the war will soon end but it must not be on the Islamists' terms.

Stephen Edwards ● 484d

https://unctad.org/topic/palestinian-people/The-question-of-Palestine

Philippa Bond ● 485d

Both the UK and the US supply Israel with arms and equipment as well as humanitarian aid to the occupied Palestinian territory.

Philippa Bond ● 485d

Yes, let's pray that the hostages are freed soon. The longer they are captive in that hellish environment, the less chance of their coming out alive. Freeing the hostages is not a unilateral action. It's a matter for negotiation, and requires reciprocity in the form of Israel's stopping the killing, the destruction and the policy of deliberate starvation of the civilian population. Dare we hope?

Robert Fish ● 485d

Agree free the hostages.

Janice Evans ● 485d

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

Philippa Bond ● 485d

Yes and free the West Bank of the settlers !

David Burke ● 485d

The problems did not start on 7 October.  They were just dreadfully exacerbated enough to really put the situation back into the international news.In 1994 the Nobel Peace Prize was won by Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres his political rival and Palestinian Leader Yasser Arafat.  In 1995 Yitzhak Rabin was shot in the back at a peace rally by an extremist Israeli who disagreed with the Oslo Peace Accords.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/assassination-yitzhak-rabin-never-knew-his-people-shot-him-in-back   

Philippa Bond ● 485d

Ariel Bibas, 4Kfir Bibas, 10 monthsLiri Albag, 18Karina Ariev, 19Agam Berger, 19Rom Braslavski, 19Itay Chen, 19Nimrod Cohen,19Daniela Gilboa, 19Shay Levinson, 19Naama Levy, 19Tamir Nimrod, 19Itzhk Elgarat, 68Fernando Simon Marman, 60Lior Rudaeff, 61Siegel Samuel Keith, 64Amiram Cooper, 85Alexander Dancyg,75Gad Haggai, 73Luis Har, 70Oded Lifshitz, 83Yoram Metzger, 80Shlomo Mansour, 85Gadi Moshe Mozes, 79Abraham Munder, 79Chaim Peri, 79Judy Weinstein, 70And not forgetting all those in between 20 and 60 years of ageBring them home and stop the war or stop the war and return the hostages

Julian Pavey ● 485d

Stephen 100% agree free the hostages

Jayne Thorburn ● 485d

I agree, Julian, that protests have been going on against Netanyahu's judicial reforms since well before 7th October. However, I'm not sure I'd agree that it's only now that the media have started to cover them (look at previous posts by AP, Reuters, BBC, Guardian, CNN, Haaretz, Jewish News and Jerusalem Post) and it certainly doesn't detract from the fact that the hostages' families have recently become much more vocal in their criticism of Netanyahu.

Robert Fish ● 485d

Free the hostages!

Stephen Edwards ● 485d

My point was these protests are political and have been going on since last october.I have not played down the fact more people may have joined in the protests for other reasons but only now have the media got involved which points to people getting the idea that all these people have just come out to protest,just likely more who are apposed to the gvmt and what is happening.I again say that these protests are political as they were from the start. That is not taking away the idea that what is going on in shocking and it has to stop in some form of action.What you have done robert is se what the media have just reported and taken it at face value.Where was the media reporting when these protests in the past against Netanyahu and his govmt were taking place. That was the point i was making,nothing else.

Julian Pavey ● 485d

Jayne, you obviously feel you're losing the argument if you need to misrepresent me twice. First, I didn't make light of this 'super serious' issue. I was mocking Julian's attempt to downplay the reality of the hostages' families' criticism of Netanyahu when he suggested it was merely 'politics'. Second, I did not "turn on Isreal (sic) or the Jewish population". My criticism was specifically directed at Netanyahu.As for Julian's attempt to suggest today's  protest was just politics as usual, the fact is that it was by far the largest protest since 7th October. The crowd in Jerusalem stretched for blocks around the Knesset, and hostages'families were deeply involved. See what Haaretz says: "During the last two weeks, most of the families have maintained restraint, but toward the last weekend, many of them reached boiling point. This was brought on by the realisation that the negotiations were not moving forward, the media reports that Netanyahu was stalling and the testimony of freed hostages Amit Soussana and Moran Stela Yanai about the sexual abuse they suffered in captivity."If you still can't see Netanyahu for the criminal that he is, the hostages' families are under no illusion.

Robert Fish ● 485d

Robert this is a super serious thread let’s not make light of it…….Julian has a very fair point….politics….you have to be a real cynic to think that even a right wing PM doesn’t want the hostages freed, the challenge is at what price for Isreal? Hamas are the bad guys here let’s remember that and not turn on Isreal or the Jewish population. The way they are being treated in the UK is shocking, no room for pro Palestine without a thought for Israeli’s

Jayne Thorburn ● 486d

Well that's reassuring! So we can be certain the protests are without justification, and Netanyahu will agree to a deal that frees the hostages anytime soon?

Robert Fish ● 486d

Those protests are political and have been ongoing since last october but stopped after the terrorist attack on israel. And only now are the media using it as if people are only coming out now. Its party political and not new

Julian Pavey ● 486d

Jayne, have you seen the protests today, involving many thousands, including the families of the hostages, in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa and several other Israeli cities? They're complaining about Netanyahu, not Hamas. They see Netanyahu as the biggest obstacle to a ceasefire agreement. He doesn't give a damn about the hostages, and is only interested in prolonging the conflict for his own personal interest.One of the speakers at the Tel Aviv rally was Amos Malks, a former head of the Israel Defense Forces’ military intelligence directorate. He said: “If the families knew how small the gap is, which Netanyahu is refusing to close in negotiations with Hamas, they would explode". “This is more evidence of his unsuitability to serve.”

Robert Fish ● 486d

In 1995 a young Israeli Law student assassinated his own Prime Minister for promoting a peace accord with Palestine.What bearing has that to do with Israel's current justification in eradicating terrorist Hamas?

Denis Ian Fox ● 486d

I may be naive but yes I do believe Isreal would have to stop if hostages are released there would be so much world pressure on them. Hamas have stated they want to wipe all Jews off the planet so this is a truly complex situation. Don’t think anyone knows how to solve it, there is no trust on either side and unless Hamas leave then I fear decent Palestinians will continue to be caught in the middle. Let’s not forget how this started on 7th October. Putin and Iran have a hand in this that I am sure about.

Jayne Thorburn ● 486d

Do you really think it will make a difference if Hamas releases the hostages?  Do you think the Israeli Govt will then let humanitarian aid in?  Do you think they'll free the teenagers who throw stones at the army?  Doesn't everyone including their families want them to be released? The hostages' families are protesting and calling fof their Govt to get them released. The Israeli Govt with all its massive amount of intelligence, protection and warning systems missed or ignored the warnings.  It is well known that there are some  prominent Israelis not just occupying Palestinian land on the West Bank but blatantly and openly encouraging other Israelis to illegally do so. Trying to push them out and off their land again.Remember it was an Israeli who shot Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in the back.

Philippa Bond ● 486d

We all care about both sides, the reality is that Hamas are still holding hostages, if they cared just 1% about fellow citizens why on earth haven’t they released them? Why hasn’t non Hamas government talked to the Hamas? The truth is none of us truly know what is going on. Yes, before everyone shouts the regular citizens are caught in the middle and it is an absolute travesty. The UN have called for an immediate cease fire on both sides but the reality is until Hamas put down their arms and release the hostages nothing will change. I just hope a human corridor will open up for the children. The challenge is who is aiding Hamas impossible to know. It’s an impossible situation it will take huge courage and bravery on both sides to stop it. Meanwhile the police in London are dealing with pro Hamas protesters with no regard for the Israeli plight super sad for both sides.

Jayne Thorburn ● 487d

https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240328-ord-01-00-en.pdfAnother call for the prevention of genocide as the trucks of aid wait in lines to be allowed into the region by Israel.

Philippa Bond ● 487d

This photo of a starving nine-year-old Palestinian boy, who was evacuated from northern Gaza to an International Medical Corps field hospital in Rafah shows the full horror of Israel's blockade of Gaza. War crime? Crime against humanity? Genocide? Meanwhile Biden talks tough but does absolutely nothing to stop the flow of arms to Israel. Is Netanyahu's escalation of the conflict in Lebanon and Syria a cynical ploy to convince Biden that without arms supplies Israel will be at risk from a broader conflict?

Robert Fish ● 487d

Humanity is totally f)£&£d. It’s gone, finished. World ‘leaders’ don’t care. It’s a free for all for everyone to grab more land as the population explodes and more and more people rush to get into the so called free world.

Steve Taylor ● 494d

What does Putin care for a few more deaths in Gaza if it takes attention away from his murderous campaign against Ukraine.

Richard Greenhough ● 495d

The Biden administration has at last been persuaded of the need to call for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, and Russia and China have vetoed the resolution. Geopolitics trumps humanitarianism. It's a cruel world out there.

Robert Fish ● 495d

Hamas as we know, care nothing for the citizens they use as protective shields in the face of gunfire.Tomorrow we again look forward to the throng of protesters, many who admire the Hamas terrorists, marching through our city streets under police surveillance and costing the tax payer a great deal.

Denis I. Fox ● 537d

Perhaps if Hamas released the hostages and thought about their own citizens we might get somewhere.

Jayne Thorburn ● 537d

Indeed. Hamas has now been holding the hostages for more than four months, ever since their terrorist attack on October 7th.

Richard Greenhough ● 537d

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/netanyahu-olmert-gaza-offensive-israel-b2493430.htmlA growing number of deaths which will increase the hate.  And still the hostages have not been released.

Philippa Bond ● 537d

https://www.nrc.no/news/2024/february/gaza-israels-military-operation-in-rafah-would-be-fatal-for-displaced-civilians-and-humanitarian-aid/I can see we will be adding Gaza to the Memorial for all the other known genocides already listed there.

Philippa Bond ● 537d

Maajid Nawaz, founder of Quilliam Think Tank;"We remind all those who value our blessed father Abraham; Stand down from world war 3. Peace is the only way obviously.Do not let our shared vision of Abrahamic unity fall into this obvious trap, do not let us down, the truth demands allegiance. Israel founded and funded Hamas. The CIA provided funding arms and tactical support to ISIS.everything you thought you knew will be turned upside down, its has been run by inversion.We will be here to try and help you make sense of it all".

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 546d

"Equally, if the Israelis could install a government that embraced the idea of a two-state solution…"Hamas would take that as a sign of weakness and carry on with their terrorism. The initial olive branch would have to come from the Palestinians, and then the world would pressure Israel to negotiate. I suspect that a significant number of Israelis would then vote for a government embracing a two-state solution, as long as they were convinced of the good faith of the Palestinians.

Richard Greenhough ● 546d

“the world would shame Israel into taking that option seriously.“The problem is that Israel has shown the world that it is incapable of being shamed. They are just too arrogant and mentally damaged since the Holocaust. It’s the age old story repeated and repeated and repeated. The abused become the abuser. It’s the same since time immemorial. The Israelis will never admit they are wrong and they don’t know the meaning of compassion.

Steve Taylor ● 546d

Equally, if the Israelis could install a government that embraced the idea of a two-state solution…

Peter Evans ● 546d

How many more women and children must die of bombing, starvation or disease before Hamas learns that terrorism is not the answer to the problems of Gaza and the West Bank? If the Palestinians could install a leadership that embraced the idea of a two-state solution, the world would shame Israel into taking that option seriously.

Richard Greenhough ● 546d

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68141039As far as I can see, the situation in Gaza is far worse than before the ICJ ruling. It is absolutely unconscionable that Western countries should withdraw funding from the UNRWA because of the Israeli government's denunciation of the participation of 12 UNRWA emploees in the October 7th massacre. Was the timing of this denunciation, immediately after the court's ruling, a cynical diversionary tactic?It's not surprising that a small number of employees were involved in the attack of 7th October - Palestinians make up most of the local staff. But the UNRWA is investigating, and has already sacked nine of the employees, whilst two are missing and one is dead. Why the indecent haste to condemn the agency itself, and withdraw funding? Here's what a coalition of other aid agencies (including Oxfam, Save the Children and Action Aid) said about the decision: "We are shocked by the reckless decision to cut a lifeline for an entire population by some of the very countries that had called for aid in Gaza to be stepped up and for humanitarians to be protected while doing their job".Meanwhile, relatives of the kidnapped Israelis are trying to block the delivery of what little aid there is, as an attempt to force the release of the hostages. This will inevitably end badly. How many more women and children must die of bombing, starvation or disease before Israel learns that force is not the answer to the problems of Gaza and the West Bank? And how much longer will our government be complicit in this crime against humanity?

Robert Fish ● 546d

Hi Kerry - if the date I ve written is wrong Im happy to be corrected on it.

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 573d

Well as Michael Good and Julian Pavey said there are other conflicts that have dropped/been dropped from the headlines and which we should remember such as Syria and Nigeria, Burma and Sudan.  I think the majority of us probably would like peace on earth.  Taking an active interest in the outside world and making sure that your MP is taking part in matters in the Commons is a part of that.Living in London gives you the much easier chance to take advantage of a trip to the HOC and HOL.

Philippa Bond ● 574d

Yes, but you have to keep a sense of perspective,Phillipa.Lobby your MP by all means,but don't imagine for one minute that airing your views on a forum like this does anyone but yourself any good and neither should you imply that no one cares because they don't air their views in the same way,which was the gist of what was said in the op.

Keith Iddon ● 574d

If you don't ask you won't get.  Have you never been around Parliament?

Philippa Bond ● 574d

Let us know what you achieve Philippa. Questions in Parliament raised by Chiswick residents. Gongs all round

Maggie Dodge ● 574d

I don't think discussing something is moaning and nor is considering what actions might and could make a difference. Our MPs can ask questions in Parliament and they are there to represent us.

Philippa Bond ● 574d

Don’t be daft, Anna. Robinson didn’t visit Gaza in December. There’s no access to Gaza. That’s a clip from years ago. Admittedly he doesn’t make that clear, he’s more than happy to fool his gullible followers.

Kerry Chandler ● 575d

I don’t think we should “retreat from the wider world” what evidence do you have to say that about me.? Just because  I don’t think moaning on ChiswickW4 will make a difference.

Maggie Dodge ● 575d

Here's your answer on Palestine: if failing to follow in the odious Tommy Robinson's footsteps is cowardice according to some weird definition of yours, I am proud to be a coward. Now it's your turn to answer my question: are you a Russian stooge? No more evasion, please.

Robert Fish ● 575d

Tommy Robinson has just visited a refugee camp in Palestine. For the video - see RobbyTominson on twitter December 13th.So Robert Fish - how about it ? Are you going to be a big brave boy in 2024 and follow in Tommys steps and go see the place you re appealing for ?????

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 575d

So you think we should retreat from the wider world?  I don't think so.  If we close our eyes to what is happening elsewhere it is quite likely to make it more dangerous for us.  It certainly doesn't make it go away.I see that the Israeli Supreme Court has ruled against the law that so many Israelis were demonstrating against earlier in the year.

Philippa Bond ● 575d

More protest, yes Mr Fish that’s a great idea . Seriously you haven’t a clue .

Maggie Dodge ● 577d

That’s your opinion Michael and you’re free to post  it as I am to say that I don’t think it’s appropriate. More importantly my point was the notion we could have an effect 😂

Maggie Dodge ● 577d

Caroline, I did have an opinion , and it was that this was not a suitable subject for a local forum. I still think that,  but you missed that I specifically put IMO at the end. So think on

Maggie Dodge ● 577d

And various reports have debunked the yacht purchase story. See for example:  https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-volodymyr-zelensky-olena-zelenska-yacht-purchase-1848520

Robert Fish ● 577d

Coke?debunked by Reuters Fact Check of online misinformation

Julian Pavey ● 577d

You appear to be more than just another conspiracy theory dupe, Anna. You eagerly embrace any report (false or true, but usually false) which casts Zelenskyy in a bad light. What's your line? You may not be antisemitic, but you are clearly prepared to use the antisemitic Khazarian conspiracy theory to discredit Ukraine. Are you a pro-Moscow stooge?

Robert Fish ● 577d

Isabelle partner of Pascal Najadi " When empires collapse, most are surprised and ruined.. brace brace brace".

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 577d

Michael - we will need new "conspiracy theories" - if they all keep coming true at the present rate...

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 577d

Anyone who tells the truth is called a conspiracy theorist, nowadays..

Michael Brown ● 577d

Id rather be labelled a conspiracy theorist than a coward -Robert.

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 577d

Fish is free to post on this matter if he wishes. Others can decide whether they wish to participate in the discussion or not..

Michael Brown ● 577d

This is a poston a local forum.  There are no rules that say someone is not allowed to ask or comme on any subject in the world that interests them or that they care about. If the title does not attract you to read it or give an opinion on it then don't bother commenting.  It is not mandatory to do so neither is it illeagle not to do so but you M Dodgeseem to have no problem commenting on such posts as you say you have no opinion about just so you may comment about someone you don't likes opinions in general. As I said before anyone can start a post they make a chise as do you.  You however have no right or power to tell them it shuld not be there that is for the modertors and the rest of the forum members and I found the comments ineresting.  Just think how boring the endless fights about repetitive local matters are for some of us and maybe start a post that inteests or informs everyone like the excellent Orchids of Madagascr exhibition coming at Kew.  I can't think of anything as fabulous as some very beautiful flowers interesting culture and music and a great walkto cheer us up in the new year until March end

Caroline Carney ● 577d

"It's utterly petty to be squabbling about virtue signalling while Rome burns."It was the Romans who were slaughtering the Jewish people in Palestine in AD70, which led to the diaspora. Plus ca change....

Richard Greenhough ● 577d

Why don't you engage your brain before posting, Maggie? The peculiar characteristic of the Gaza conflict which distinguishes it from most of the others going on at present is that the Israel campaign of vengeance has the active support of the US government, and the complicity of our government. As I've said before, but you don't seem to understand, Israel is a client state of the USA. If the USA stopped providing unconditional support, Israel might just adopt different tactics.  And if our government stopped its complicity, Biden might just think again. So whatever pressure people can exert via their MP or via protests might help.  It's not, as alleged by some who appear to be smarting from a perceived slight, merely virtue signalling. It's utterly petty to be squabbling about virtue signalling while Rome burns.

Robert Fish ● 577d

Maggie,it's called virtue signalling,your feelings having to be paraded for all to see so everyone knows how pure you are.Whetherit makes any difference to reality is for the signaller to decide I suppose,but it's usually a self serving device that makes not a jot of difference.

Keith Iddon ● 577d

"Are you happy to let the horror show continue unabated?"Possibly the dumbest question posed on this forum ever.

Adrian Irving ● 577d

Oh for goodness sake, to suggest it’s not the thing we’re all talking is ridiculous. To suggest we can affect what happens is even more ludicrous. As Julian says there are other conflicts, are you going to solve them all on Chiswick W4

Maggie Dodge ● 577d

Shame the top religious leaders withing the 2 regions or even hamas are not calling for a ceasefire. Only the people are calling out while both are firing rockets at each other with no thought. Please think of the massacre going on in nigeria where christians are being slaughtered by Boko Haram and Fulani Muslim herders. It is reported that christmas eve over 200+ were slaughtered.

Julian Pavey ● 577d

The point is, Mrs Dodge, the more we discuss it, the greater may be the pressure to do something about it. More people might write to their MPs, or take part in protests. Are you happy to let the horror show continue unabated?

Robert Fish ● 577d

What a horrible topic for a local forum. Shame on Mr Fish and the idiotic non post by Anne England. You’d have to be brain dead not to be thinking about Gaza, or caring but what is the point of discussing it here. Except to create division on far too an important an issue for ChiswickW4 IMO

Maggie Dodge ● 577d

The only position I take on antisemitic conspiracy theories circulating on social media is to studiously ignore them.

Robert Fish ● 578d

Mikhail, you fail to answer the question. As someone with Viking ancestry, I can assure you that we never went away.

Richard Greenhough ● 578d

Hi again Robert - what position do you take on the Khazarian Mafia in relation to the Israeli/ Gaza conflict ?

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 578d

Fallen down another rabbit hole, Anna? See Francis Rowe's post at 12.19 on the Ukraine thread.

Robert Fish ● 578d

The UK GOVT WERE PUT INTO THE SAME COURT IN 2020 FOR "CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY." Ask the same media source who told you your info for your above post - why they ve hidden the charges against the UK govt from you.

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 578d

Jeremy, you have misrepresented my position on Gaza in so many ways that I scarcely know where to start correcting you.I did not insist that "silence equals callousness and indifference". That is your wholly unjustified inference. My last question was merely intended to elicit a response, which seems to have been successful, but not quite as hoped. I didn't realise some people are quite so thin-skinned.When you "point out that this is a complex and tragic situation in which both sides have just cause for grievance and have carried out shameful actions" you are merely stating the obvious, and something with which I would agree. I have never sought to deny the enormity of what Hamas did on 7th October. Nor was it my intention to "pick a side in a war". You may ask therefore why I appear to be so exercised about the actions of the IDF rather than Hamas. The answer is because what Hamas did is already history (although I recognise that, if they aren't destroyed, it could happen again). We can't revisit the past, and revive the lives that were shattered in so many appalling ways on that day. But what the IDF is doing is happening now, and perhaps if our voices are loud enough we can persuade Western governments to do something to stop the massacre.Please indicate where I have expressed opinions as fact. Are you referring to my opinions about genocide? I have specifically said that we can't call the IDF's actions genocide, because we can't be sure about the intention. All I commented on was the practical effect. As to intention, I think you'll find that South Africa, in its submission to the International Court of Justice has indicated evidence of genocidal intent - President Herzog saying there are 'no innocents in Gaza', and the Defence Minister saying Israel will impose collective punishment on the people of Gaza because they are ‘human animals’.In answer to your point in a previous post about the inevitability of collateral damage, how do you justify the use of 2000lb dumb bombs in a tightly-packed urban environment? Are there no subtler and more humane ways of slaying the dragon?

Robert Fish ● 578d

Temporarily at least.

Keith Iddon ● 578d

Thank you for this important reminder about peace Jeremy. All wars end in  peace eventually, its just a question of how much blood and money on the journey there  gets wrung out by those who profit from such things - before peace is secured.

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 578d

Robert, I did read your post carefully, and understood it, but it appears you did not.You wrote: “I wonder how much of my post you read or understood. I specifically avoided calling the Israeli actions genocide.”But you had said earlier, “there may be some doubt as to whether the intention is to destroy that group, in whole or in part, or whether it is to kill sufficient members of that group to force them to disown Hamas. But either way the effect is tantamount to genocide.”I am not aiming to serve as an apologist for either side, just trying to point out that this is complex and tragic situation in which both sides have just cause for grievance and have carried out shameful actions. It has to be said you come across as quite sanctimonious in condemning your neighbours for not wishing to comment on the matter and insisting that their silence equals callousness and indifference. Expounding your views in a strident (yes strident) manner and expressing opinions as fact is not an indication that you are a more caring person that the rest of us.Most people recognise, that if you want to encourage peace, the last thing you should do is pick a side in a war.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 578d

Brigadier, most lands throughout the world have had different rulers over many millennia. We're talking about designated lands and ownership in recent history. I guess you would welcome the Vikings back to Britain..

Michael Brown ● 578d

Well said,Adrian.

Keith Iddon ● 579d

Most people on this forum say what they think whilst others try to tell people what they should think.

Adrian Irving ● 579d

Even the great Andrew Neil can make no moral stance on the Israeli/Hamas war.In his words: "Tragically, some wars just have to take their course"

Denis I. Fox ● 579d

The war machine must be fed continously,  its always hungry for more war.. The shareholders demand it.. Ask Theresa Mays husband Philip who "made a killing" from defence investments in Lockheed Martin when Theresa called in the Syrian air strikes...

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 579d

"My understanding is that Palestine became occupied way back by an uninvited force, and the people have been persecuted ever since."Do you mean the Babylonians, the Macedonians, the Romans, the Saracens, the Crusaders, the Ottomans, or some other "uninvited force" ? Sadly that small patch of land at the eastern end of the Mediterranean has been fought over by many people and armies over many millennia. Until the Palestinians come up with a leadership prepared to discuss a two-state solution and shame Israel into taking part in meaningful negotiations to achieve it, there seems little prospect of a lasting peace.

Richard Greenhough ● 579d

What's Priti Patel got to do with it?

Anne England ● 579d

Or even "party pris"!

Robert Fish ● 579d

"Strident"? Strident means excessively forceful. I don't think that, in the midst of the perpetual bad-tempered squabbles on this forum over bikes, LTNs, etc, a call to end the virtual silence over Gaza is unnecessarily forceful. If you wish to interpret my post as implying that anyone who doesn't share my point of view lacks compassion, be my guest, but that wasn't the intention, and all I can say in response is that you seem to be very easily irritated.Is this another of your posts such as we have seen in the bicycle/car dispute, where you feign impartiality, but actually seem to be parti pri? Are you a disguised apologist for the IDF?As for your comments on genocide, I wonder how much of my post you read or understood. I specifically avoided calling the Israeli actions genocide, because one couldn't be sure whether they were intended to destroy Gazan Palestinians as a group, in whole or in part, or simply to kill them in sufficient numbers to undermine support for Hamas. But in practical terms, when 21,000 people have been slaughtered (most of the victims being women and children) what's the difference?Finally, if you feel that someone who has never been to either Israel or Gaza isn't qualified to comment on this subject, perhaps you might be prepared to listen to the views of a distinguished Israeli-British historian, who grew up in Ramat Gan and served two years in the Israeli Defence Forces:  https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/world/israel/64132/all-that-remains

Robert Fish ● 579d

'not surprising' or 'unsurprising', sorry..

Michael Brown ● 579d

My understanding is that Palastine became occupied way back by an uninvited force, and the people have been persecuted ever since. The Hamas attack is regrettable but not unsurprising. I don't believe that Netanyahu is just trying to destroy Hamas, but kill as many Palestinians as he can..

Michael Brown ● 579d

I suspect the reason the question was asked is that it would be normally be expected that someone with such strident and confident opinions would have direct and personal knowledge of what was happening.Other than a few stop overs in the Gulf States I've never been to the Middle East so I hesitate to jump to one side of the argument over this horrific situation. I think I won't be alone in being slightly irritated with your implication that anyone who doesn't share your point of view lacks compassion or hasn't considered the situation with some care.To use the term genocide in this context seems to be deliberately provocative and doesn't really stand up to any close scrutiny. Certainly there are people in Israel including those in government whose views could be interpreted as genocidal but the actions of the IDF, while arguably barbaric and excessive are not genocidal.They would claim that civilian deaths are a regrettable but unavoidable outcome of an entirely proportionate and justifiable military action against a territory which is one of the most densely population in the world and against an enemy which effectively uses the people living there as human shields and is continuing to fire rockets at Israel.Whether this is the whole truth I can't say. On the one hand there is no doubt that the destruction wrought on Gaza is appalling but if it is genocidal in intent it has to be said that the IDF are extremely inefficient. According to Hamas health ministry figures the death toll is over 21,000. This is about the same number as the amount of explosive rounds fired into the strip since the start of the assault.The IDF says it gives warnings to occupants of buildings to be attacked and there is testimony of residents receiving calls from Arabic speakers warning them to move. Buildings are 'double tapped' i.e. there is a low explosive charge shell dropped on the top floor of a building before the high explosive round. The IDF says all missiles fired are subject to pre-approval from a team of lawyers independent of the army who must receive evidence that the target is a legitimate military one. Are these rules and guidelines always followed or are they implemented in a way that errs on the side of vindictiveness? I don't know, I've never been to the region so don't have enough knowledge to have a firm opinion.What is undeniable is that the IDF claims it follows rules of engagement and proportionality which are exactly the same used by the RAF in conflicts. This regards anyone within the proximity of a military target as effectively not being a civilian. Our armed forces have killed lots of people on this basis over the past few decades. This is deemed legitimate in the way we interpret the rules of conflict. Obviously, I would like the violence to stop now and no more innocents to be killed and I'm sure everyone feels the same. However, two questions need to be asked. Firstly, in the aftermath of a 7 October-like incident affecting this country would you be backing similar action on the territory of the perpetrator to that currently being carried out by the IDF on Gaza? Shamefully, I suspect I would. Secondly, were the UK in the same situation as Israel, do you think any government could accept a ceasefire and not immediately be booted out of power? My view is that this would be inconceivable.Our ability to impact events in this situation is very limited and any satisfactory solution is going to be very hard to achieve. However, the most effective way for any individual to further inflame conflict is take a simplistic, unnuanced view of what is happening and condemn one side in terms that they are likely to find unjustified and highly offensive.As I will keep stressing, I don't have enough knowledge of the situation to reach a fixed view. What I can say with some confidence is that, after 7 October, Hamas, or any similar successor organisation, cannot have any involvement in government in Gaza. If we want Israel to stop killing innocent women and children, a solution needs to be offered to them that involves a future without Hamas. I really don't have the faintest idea what that might be.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 579d

No! Why do you ask?

Robert Fish ● 580d

Have you ever been to Gaza or Israel Robert ??

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 580d

A good point, Michael. We shouldn't forget that over half a million people have been killed in Syria, and half the population displaced, since 2011. But there is a difference between Syria and Israel: Syria isn't a client state of the US, and American influence to stop the civil war is limited. Unless it wants to engage in a war with Russia, there's not much the US can do other than impose sanctions. But where it does have influence, it has done nothing to restrain Netanyahu's excesses, and the UK, in its abstention on Security Council resolutions (until the last anodyne one), and its continued insistence on Israel's right to defend itself, has been largely complicit.

Robert Fish ● 582d

Maybe have a think about Syria too ?In 2022, the United Nations estimated that more than 306,000 civilians have been killed in Syria during the ongoing civil war, while other human rights groups have placed the number at more than half a million.The international body in 2021 pointed the finger at Damascus for “heinous violations of international humanitarian and human rights law perpetrated against the civilian population in Syria since March 2011. Such acts are likely to constitute crimes against humanity, war crimes and other international crimes, including genocide.” Damascus has additionally been accused of using chemical weapons against its own citizens.

Michael Good ● 582d

Miss England - we should care, and do all we can to save the unnecessary loss of lives in all situations. Fish has been cherry picking for sometime now, but all lives matter..

Michael Brown ● 582d

Robert, I think you'll find that the great majority of the people who use the forum do care deeply about the horrors that are taking place in Gaza. They may, however, feel that a little local forum such as ChiswickW4 is not a suitable place to express the sheer volume of grief, anger and fear that such a cataclysm engenders. Differences of opinion on the forum tend to deteriorate into petty back-and-forth exchanges with no firm conclusions reached; the Gaza tragedy is far too serious for that treatment.

Colin Jordan ● 582d

Never miss an opportunity, eh Michael?

Anne England ● 582d

Agree Keith.

Janice Evans ● 583d

To suggest that no one else on the forum cares but you about the desperate plight of civilians in Gaza is bizarre.I care very much,but am not really sure what to do about it.I do think of the desperate situation there,but what difference to the suffering does that make? If I believed in God I would pray for them,not that it would do any good either.

Keith Iddon ● 583d

I care, Mr Fish. I care about this and all deaths incurred as a result of State sponsored psy-ops, which includes the Great Covid Response Scam & coerced lethal Covid injections. People are suddenly dropping dead all over the place, particularly the young. Please spare a thought for these people and their families too, Mr Fish..Merry Xmas