Forum Topic

"Everyone should fund public services not just higher earners who probably use public services less!"How do you work that out?  Do the rich benefit less from defence spending, roads and infrastructure, police and security, or receive lower old age state pensions (one of the biggest costs of all)?  I think that there is a reasonable argument that they benefit considerably more.The counter argument is that the more you own / earn, the more you benefit from an orderly, structured and safe society - i.e. benefit more, not less, from public spending.Unless of course you believe that sharing and supporting each other, for the benefit of society as a whole, is wrong and believe in a "dog eat dog" "every man for himself" society.  If that's your conservative philosophy, just say so.  Then people can make the choice who to vote for on the facts.The nub of it is that production and growth is made up of various factors - traditionally, land labour capital and entrepreneurship - but let's look at primarily labour and capital.  Profit generated from enterprise can then be apportioned between the contribution of labour and the contribution of capital.  The problem is that over the last 10 years the reward for labour has declined (direct reward, in wages, and also indirect decline in the form of social benefits such as investment into education, healthcare, police and security, etc.) but the share of profits allocated to capital has increased.  So bigger and bigger pools of capital have been built up in fewer and fewer hands, distorting the economy, making it less productive, and resulting in a decline in quality of life in the UK (and life expectancy)."It's the same the whole world over: It's the poor what gets the blame. It's the rich what gets the pleasure; Ain't it all a bloomin' shame".  But particularly in the UK, over the last decade and the political (not economic) policy of austerity (or, if it was an economic policy, it has demonstrably failed miserably).Real wages have been flat for the last decade.  If the pre-conservative trajectory had been maintained, real average wages would be 25% higher than they are now.Government debt as a percentage of GDP under the conservatives (taken pre 2008 credit crises, and pre 2020 covid crisis, to iron out those exceptional events) increased from about 40% to over 80%.  It can be misleading to look at a country in isolation, because this may not reflect changes in the international economy. So let's compare the UK with Germany. Over the same period, debt as a percentage of GDP in Germany declined from about 64% to about 60%.  So we have done a lot worse.So please don't give me that nonsense about the "conservatives manage the economy better".  It is objectively and demonstrably untrue.  (In fact, the evidence supports the view that prior to 2010, there was little to choose between the two as to growth, the choice was about the equitable distribution of the benefits of that growth – but since 2010, the conservative government has done worse on both counts).

T P Howell ● 890d

"... discourage higher earners for which the country relies on to fund public services"?What complete and utter tosh, based on no evidence whatsoever. And frankly economically ignorant. The "Laffer Curve" theory (that higher taxes lead to a lower tax revenues) was well and truely debunked long ago (with very limited execeptions,such as evidence that higher rates of capital gains will encourge people to defer realising gains which can result in lower capital gains tax revenues).  It was a supply side economic theory to justify the "crumbs off the table" political doctrine (i.e. that only if we allow the rich to become richer will there be sufficient crumbs falling from the table to feed the poor).  Many of our public services have been privatised, so no longer under public ownership.  Which means a lack of investment, they are no longer owned by us all equally (adding to the national wealth, and so we could profit from them collecively), and the ecomomy as a whole has to subsidise "rental" capitalism - i.e. where rich people get richer just by owning things and charging other people to use them, without creating wealth nor contributing to the development of the wider economy.UK tax revenue is about 33% of GDP. The average for comporable European economies is 39% (almost 20% higher).  The UK has one of the least progressive tax systems in European, in that a disproportionate burden falls on lower income earners, and raises proportionately less from middle and high earners when compared to the rest of Europe.We also facilitate a disproportionate share of international tax avoidence (and probably evasion) through off shore protectorates - some estimates put it as high as 80%.There is absolutely no evidence that higher taxes discourage higher earners. Discourage them from what - getting richer?The problem is that the tax burden in the UK falls more heavily on lower earners that most other European countries, and (which is of course a matter of opinion) by taxing 20% less overall than other European countries we are unable to adequately invest in public services for the improvement of society as a whole.

T P Howell ● 891d

The Conservative vote has generally remained static within the 39-40% range for the last few years. That probably is reflective of a hard core of support for the party who remain convinced that leaving the EU was a good idea. The glaring inadequacies of the party's leader is irrelevant to them.The last election saw this percentage rise a bit as many people saw Johnson as less unpalatable alternative to Corbyn  so the next election is likely to be closer but there is little any Labour leader can do about reducing the Tory's core support. Most of the people who continue to support the Conservatives are generally immune from the economic consequences of leaving the EU or are prepared to believe misleading arguments that the problems they are having are due to Covid.Personally I think the notion of Labour losing a 'Red Wall' is incorrect. You look at the seats they traditionally held in the north and midlands that the Tories now hold, they are all constituencies with a very high proportion of older voters. In constituencies were demographics is more reflective of population averages Labour have held on.Therefore all Labour can do is compete with the Lib Dems and Greens for the 60-61% of the votes which won't be going to the Conservatives. That's quite a tough challenge as many Lib Dem supporters are currently disaffected Tories and the Greens are boosted by the prevalence of coverage of climate change.The two things in Labour's favour is that the toxic nature of Corbyn's leadership will no longer be a factor which should swing at least 3-4% back all parties as people assumed voting Lib Dem or Green was effectively voting for a Corbyn-led coalition last time. Also there will be more scope for a 'progressive alliance' than last time as there would be far less of a problem of Labour forming a coalition.One area where Labour is going to make big gains is in Metropolitan areas with a high proportion of professional people. I've lost count of the number of people I know with decidedly conservative views who have vowed not to support the Conservatives under Johnson. The faux outrage about Gerald McGregor's comments doesn't disguise that his team are generally very competent and committed and do a good job. However, most people don't vote on local issues in local elections and I'd be surprised if Chiswick didn't have some Labour councillors next May.

Francis Rowe ● 891d

A couple of days ago, Michael Adams wrote"That the TV personality/bumbling clown persona known as Boris Johnson would still win any General Election hands down when pitched against a charisma bypass such as Kier Starmer. More especially as the latter seems more intent on rooting out all opposition in his own party than addressing the shambles orchestrated by the Tories."What would you prefer to run the country? A "TV personality/bumbling clown" or a "charisma bypass"?I know which I'd prefer and it isn't the former who is just increasing the size of the shambles in all areas. Starmer has some morals and is reasonably capable.... He's also able to show credibility to the EU and the rest of the world - unlike the encumbent PM who is seen as a joke. (I wonder why...)"the latter seems more intent on rooting out all opposition in his own party than addressing the shambles orchestrated by the Tories".You will (I assume) have noted the splits in the Labour party that went a long way to helping them lose the last election. This was due in no small measure to Corbyn who (for whatever reason) seemed unable a) to unite his party, and b) to root out and address anti-semitism in his party.Starmer obviously has to fix these problems (and others) before the next General Election in order for Labour to stand a chance of winning it.Why does Labour need to win the next General Election? The main reason is so that someone (either with or without charisma) can fix our deteriorating relationship with the EU (thanks Frosty old bean). An absolute necessity for the UK (if it remains such) to be able to do business with the EU (our nearest and largest trading partner) and to remain in the various important EU organisations.

John Hickman ● 892d

You clearly don't understand how the process works, and need to read more. You could start with reading the comments of the Chairman of the Select Committee on Standards in the House yesterday. This is what he had to say:"On the process, the Member has had a fair hearing. We had legal advice from Speaker’s Counsel throughout. As one former High Court judge said to me yesterday,“the procedure is consistent with natural justice and similar or identical to workplaces up and down the country.”We on the Committee spent many hours reviewing the evidence in this case without fear or favour. The Member had prior notice of the charges and the evidence against him at every stage. He had his legal advisers with him. The Committee invited him to make his appeal against the commissioner’s findings in writing and in person, and I hope he would confirm that we gave him every opportunity to make his case to us and that the session was conducted respectfully and fairly. I think he is nodding.The Member has said that his witnesses should have been interviewed. Natural justice requires that witnesses be heard, but that does not necessarily mean that they must be heard orally or cross-examined. We did what many courts and tribunals do every day of the week: we reviewed all the witness statements, took them into consideration and published them in full.The Member claims that the commissioner had made up her mind before she sent her memorandum. That is completely to misunderstand the process. As the commissioner has done in every other case, she started an investigation and invited the Member to meet her and/or to submit evidence. Once she had completed her investigation and, by definition, found on a preliminary basis that there had been a breach of the rules, she submitted a memorandum to him for his comments, and then to the Committee. That is when we heard his appeal, in writing and in person."Beats me where you dug up the rubbish about not being given an opportunity to be heard.

Robert Fish ● 894d