Forum Topic

Traffic Measure To Proceed

So the council that is supposed to represent the people have decided in their lack of wisdom to go against the majority of public opinion and push ahead with their traffic schemes for Chiswick.Delivery vehicles will not be exempt.So can LBH explain how people and businesses are supposed to have deliveries? I had a courier trolley goods from Grove Park Terrace to the middle of Thames Road because he could not proceed past the point of access only. How is this common sense? Surely taxis and delivery vehicles should be exempt? How will the pubs and restaurants work with this? What about the postman????

Pete Johnson ● 911d24 Comments

Thank you John: my understanding of the time reference is - they don’t hold that information, if they did they wouldn’t tell us. Anyway time isn’t the issue, but the timing element is in place to facilitate and enforce the restriction. I could be wrong , it’s so strangely worded and clear as mud.  

Maggie Dodge ● 910d

Below is an extract from the Hounslow reply to a Freedom of Information request re definition of time limits relating to  "access". This answer was given late last year. You may see from that the Council would not define a period of access in case it encouraged drivers to use Thames Road. Is this democracy in action?EXTRACTIn response to the question you raised regarding the time limit for Thames road, At the current time the Council does not hold the information requested regarding the time limit. However, should at any time the Council hold such information then it is likely that we would treat that information as exempt under Section 31 (2) (c) of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 as the timing element is in place to facilitate and enable the enforcement of a restriction. Further, releasing the pre-determined timings relating to the linked-cameras for this scheme is likely to start to dilute the effectiveness of the measure over time as there is a chance this information would become general knowledge. This in turn would likely undermine the purpose of the scheme which is to prevent through traffic.Details can be found in the FOI guidance here: https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/documents/1207/law-enforcement-foi-section-31.pdf .There is no intention to issue penalty charge notices for legitimate access journeys. The penalty in question is not the time limit, but the purpose of the journey i.e. is it for access (permitted) or non-access (not permitted) purposes. These type of access-only schemes are being trialled as part of Streetspace and we will be reviewing ways in which they can be made clearer and more effective. Residents feedback on this will be very important.

John Davies ● 910d

Richard, are these restrictions “fit for purpose” if that’s the correct terminology, when the people who are required to abide by them are constantly looking for clarification from each other and the Council. I’m sure you understand them but is it possible for you to say whether you think the average person should find them clear ? As our resident  t expert on these matters I think we’d all value your input but can you come down to the average drivers level?

Maggie Dodge ● 911d

Interesting, so this is the Council’s response to the query about how long you need to stop?

Maggie Dodge ● 911d

I don't understand why Cllr Biddolph says that "except for access" is bad for business.  It means that if you want to visit a business within the zone, you can do so. And if a business wants to deliver to an address in the zone, they can do that too. Neither is possible with the Hartington Road type of restriction without incurring longer journeys and more pollution.

Richard Jennings ● 911d

If a camera covers an entire street then there is direct evidence if the vehicle stopped or not.The approach that Cllr Hearn and the Grove Park Group would like all over Grove Park would use the time taken between 2 locations to infer if the vehicle stopped or not. So circumstantial evidence rather than direct evidence. A council will never say what the time is because the offence isn’t the time taken, it is not stopping. In the limited number of appeals there has been for this approach, the adjudicator refused the appeal and accepted the evidence presented by the council.If the time was such that the vehicle had an average speed of say 20mph, the driver may have difficulty convincing the adjudicator that they had stopped to access a location.I agree that the use of circumstantial rather than direct evidence could present issues and I believe Hounslow are the first council to trial this approach.Cllr Hearn and Cllr Biddolph can have a battle over this because Cllr Hearn wants to use the ‘except for access” method everywhere rather than have barriers or no entry signs.

Michael Robinson ● 911d

I'd have thought, with EXCEPT FOR ACCESS, it's up to the authorities to prove you drove straight through and not for you to prove you didn't.

Peter Evans ● 911d

Let’s hope Hounslow gets its act together and comes up with a time. How long has it been now and I’m assuming still no answer. But the fines are a nice little earner eh

Maggie Dodge ● 911d

Cllr Hearn wants the ‘except for access’ restriction implemented on every single  entrance and exit to Grove Park and Cllr Biddolph says “it’s lousy for business and it’s lousy for our community”.Is it too much to hope for that they can actually agree a coherent position?

Michael Robinson ● 911d

"On the timed exit point, I seem to remember no one could get Hounslow to say how long the stop had to be, was this ever sorted out?"No, at least not for Turnham Green Terrace and Devonshire Road. LBH refused to say how long the stop needed to be for - it didn't want anyone to stop to let the required minutes tick by (perhaps, a cynic might say, because it would mean less income from fines).  At one point, Mark Frost asked anyone who stopped who was then fined to provide receipts showing they had actually stopped to buy something - no good if you were dropping off rather than buying or picking up a friend/family member to take them to or bring them back from an appointment. Ultimately, "except for access" is to encourage people not even to try. It's lousy for business and it's lousy for our community.

Joanna Biddolph ● 911d

I’m a bit lost to say the least and avoid the area like the plague.On the timed exit point, I seem to remember no one could get Hounslow to say how long the stop had to be, was this ever sorted out?

Maggie Dodge ● 911d

"If you're referring to the SOTG/Thames Road scheme, no, if you have made an access, you can leave the area by any route."So access would mean a timed stop? I can drive into SOTG from Kew Bridge, make a stop/collection/delivery. Then proceed to drive out through Grove Park? But not straight through from Kew Bridge to Grove Park without stopping?

Pete Johnson ● 911d

1.  Heaven forbid that I should want to visit SoTG next the City Barge by car, or the Bull’s Head, for a pint and then leave by an alternative route.  2.  Further IF perhaps I just wanted to walk to the riverside from Gunnersbury railway station, which is now closed [24 trains per hour on any normal football match day] for hours for fear of an excess of Brentford travellers. 3.    Supposing the SoTG motoring exit route used is blocked by some accident or other on the A4 road?  Will penalty charges be waived when using an alternative route?I wonder what next the Council & TFL have in store?

Peter Crowther ● 911d

Cllr Hearn, is there anyone at the Council we can email to get absolute clarification on the term "except for access" within the Grove Park/SOTG scheme? Hartington Road says "permit holders only" and the entrance at Grove Park Terrace says "access only". As Richard Jennings pointed out earlier, if delivery drivers/taxis travel along Hartington Road then continue through Grove Park on Grove Park Road then they are fined. However If they come down Grove Park Terrace then turn right into Grove Park Road they are not fined? Sorry if this sounds confusing but it damn well is!

Pete Johnson ● 911d

"So Richard, “except for access” means that delivery drivers and taxis can make the journey into Grove Park/SOTG providing they don’t come via Hartington Road?"You are trying to over-simplify the South Chiswick schemes.  The SOTG/Thames Road scheme allows anyone to enter if they are making access to an address within the SOTG/Thames Road area. Making access includes deliveries and collections of goods or people within the area. What is not allowed is to enter the area at one end and drive straight through on the way to somewhere else, such as entering at Kew Bridge and driving directly to Grove Park. (Taxis and buses, however, are exempted.)The Hartington Road scheme prevents all motor traffic from proceeding northwards on Hartington Road at the junction with Chiswick Quay, unless the vehicle is based in CPZs CS or RV and has obtained a permit for this scheme.  There are NO exemptions for delivery vehicles or minicabs or taxis."Must they also then leave by the same route they entered?"If you're referring to the SOTG/Thames Road scheme, no, if you have made an access, you can leave the area by any route.Re the Hartington Road scheme, there are no restrictions on southbound use of the road.

Richard Jennings ● 911d

Hi Vanessa - work on Phase 3 of the Street Space nightmare was authorised by the Hounslow cabinet last November. Traffic Officers will be collecting data to support their schemes. Even Hounslow Council are not daft enough to implement Phase 3 "on the ground" before the May 2022 Local Elections. But it is good to know that you feel our pain.

Cllr Sam Hearn ● 911d

Not sure if this is any comfort, but on top of the roads opposite West Middx. Hospital being access only for bikes and pedestrians and fouling up the traffic on Twickenham Rd. It has been noted that traffic counters have appeared on other roads that allow traffic to filter off that same road. Do these herald more of these dopey schemes that no-one wants and will just add to the constant snarl up on Twickenham Rd.? Trust me  - we feel your pain - and share it.

Vanessa Smith ● 911d

So Richard, “except for access” means that delivery drivers and taxis can make the journey into Grove Park/SOTG providing they don’t come via Hartington Road? Must they also then leave by the same route they entered?

Pete Johnson ● 911d

That the scheme would be made permanent irrespective of the evidence or local opinion was always likely.  The idea that LBH was listening is simply absurd unless you define "listening" as ignoring everybody who disagrees with your predetermined views and only listening to those who agree with you.We all know LBH does not care about Chiswick other than for the purposes of extracting money from its residents and businesses.  We are a Tory enclave in a safe Lab council.  Wrecking Chiswick and making live difficult for its residents is probably considered a bonus for the Lab councillors

Justin Stephenson ● 911d

I think the answer to that is, that this is primarily about raising money for the council, it really is that simple.Money from central government and money from fines.Make the rules so confusing and different everywhere, that a certain percentage of drivers will just have to pay up,Croydon has done the same and have included the revenue from fines in future budgets.  Now they are worried they may run out of money if everyone obeys the rules, so even more reason to make the rules as confusing as possible.

Rahman Hyatt ● 911d

It is a very confusing scheme and should be outlawed, how is a delivery driver supposed to understand who is exempt and who isn’t. Locals are confused so delivery drivers, taxis etc, have no chance. Absolutely crazy, you couldn’t make it up even a child could work that out. Who on earth at the council has approved such a mad scheme, people with no brains 🥺🥺🥺🥺

Jayne Thorburn ● 911d

or to ask another set of questions, why are there no similar traffic restrictions preventing traffic congestion on Riverside Drive at the weekends for vehicles outside of borough driving to Dukes Meadows sport facilities; why are non-local resident allotment holders permitted into Staveley Road school street during restrictions in an are that Hounslow will now describe totally pedestrian and cyclist facilitated and why has there been no remodelling of the junction of Dan Mason Drive with the A316 to make it safer for pedestrians and cyclists to cross safely? In other words  why implement schemes that do not address primary safety, local community and environmental issues?

Simeon Gill ● 911d

Isn’t this part of the problem Richard. Too many schemes, in too many areas, all with different rules.

Maggie Dodge ● 911d

"I had a courier trolley goods from Grove Park Terrace to the middle of Thames Road because he could not proceed past the point of access only."He had no need to do that.  If he was driving through Grove Park Terrace to deliver to Thames Road, then he was covered by the "Except for access" exemption of the Thames Road LTN.It's the Hartington Road scheme that doesn't provide for delivery vehicles, who need to find another route, as there is no "except for access" exemption in the Hartington Road scheme. 

Richard Jennings ● 911d