Forum Topic

LTNs and women's safety.

A young woman on the BBC this morning when they were discussing L.B. Ealing putting in more of these 'low traffic neighbourhoods' - made the point - that when she got a taxi home, the driver was unable to drop her off outside her house due to the restrictions, leaving her to walk through an empty street. LTNs must be pretty daunting for people walking down them after dark? Similarly pedestrianised high streets. Where there is no through traffic or buses there is little activity. It's all very well the LTN zealots banging on and on about the supposed virtues of these schemes but the drawbacks that have so recently been highlighted seem to be being overlooked. If women's safety is compromised on main roads, fairly well lit and peopled, what will be the consequences of LTNs?

Vanessa Smith ● 2050d63 Comments

This was my daughter’s experience in Islington. Recent road changes, the Uber driver said he couldn’t take her to her door. Whether it was actually the case that he was prevented, or it was just too complicated to fathom out the route, I can’t tell you as I haven’t looked at the local restrictions. There was clearly a sense of it being too difficult to navigate the changes and what they meant for a taxi drop off. Clarification is clearly required.

Alison Gascoigne ● 2050d

In light of recent events and the number of concerns that have been expressed by women regarding this issue, Hounslow and Ealing Council should immediately suspend the operation of LTNs between 7pm and 7am.

Francis Rowe ● 2050d

Or better still, between 7pm and 7pm.

Colin Jordan ● 2050d

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2021/03/18/bbc-accused-of-airing-incendiary-claim-that-women-put-in-danger-by-low-traffic-neighborhoods/

Ken Munn ● 2049d

I note that Lord Berkeley - who made a complaint to the BBC about the piece re LTNs and women's safety the other night is also patron of the All Party Parliamentary Group on cycling and walking. Well, there's a surprise! You might say 'well he would say that wouldn't he?'

Vanessa Smith ● 2049d

I like Francis idea.

Janice Evans ● 2049d

I prefer Colin's.

Jennifer selig ● 2049d

😊

Janice Evans ● 2049d

What possible argument is there against the night time suspension of LTN restrictions?

Felicity Caborn ● 2049d

Are taxis banned from entering LTNs — only residents can access?

Ed Saper ● 2049d

The rules vary from LTN to LTN but I think that ultimately black cabs will be exempted from most restrictions where they are not already due to the Justice Lang ruling.Generally any vehicle can enter an LTN but cannot pass through restricted points. Cab drivers of all varieties seem to be keen to avoid them at the moment because they have been accumulating fines.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 2049d

OK - I've taken a look at the Hounslow site for Strand:https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/info/20053/transport/2181/south_chiswick_liveable_neighbourhood/2It suggests (via the sign) that taxis and buses can pass through it - did that happen, or was it cancelled?If they can't, presumably they can still access and leave by the same route? 

Ed Saper ● 2049d

Is that one active yet? Anyway no buses take that route.

Vivienne Cox ● 2049d

A minicab driver told me that only black cabs were permitted in LTNs, not minicabs.

Claire Moran ● 2049d

A study on the effect of LTN’s on crime was recently published:Using police data, 2012-2019, we examine the impact on street crime of introducing low trafficneighbourhoods in Waltham Forest, London. Overall, the introduction of a low traffic neighbourhoodwas associated with a 10% decrease in total street crime (95% confidence interval 7% to 13%), and this effect increased with a longer duration since implementation (18% decrease after 3 years). An even larger reduction was observed for violence and sexual offences, the most serious subcategory of crime. The only subcategory of crime that increased significantly was bicycle theft, plausibly largely reflecting increased cycling levels.  There was no indication of displacement of any crime subcategory into adjacent areas.https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/ftm8d/

Tom Pike ● 2048d

Whack-a-mole

Paul Campbell ● 2048d

Hammersmith & Fulham are planning to exempt local cab firms and Uber as well. https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/sw6-traffic-reduction-scheme/south-fulham-tcpr-frequently-asked-questions

Ed Saper ● 2048d

Clarification please re Hartington Rd - so does that mean a cab, black, mini or Uber, service vehicle, also family visitors may enter from A316, drive past the Hartington Rd camera by Roko Club, entering the two tiny CPZones CS & RV, stay a while and leave the same way without getting a fine?  However if they chose to exit via Sutton Crt Rd, Burlington Rd or S-on-t-Green they will be fined?

Jennifer selig ● 2048d

Meant to add, way back in the 1980ties, once it got dark my husband would always collect me from Turnham Grn tube or Chiswick mainline station or I had a cab home.  Several times I was approached by drunks or druggies (both sexes) asking aggressively for money in TGT and the lonely walk along Station Approach and Cavendish Rd didn't feel safe - so no change then!

Jennifer selig ● 2048d

"Clarification please re Hartington Rd - so does that mean a cab, black, mini or Uber, service vehicle, also family visitors may enter from A316, drive past the Hartington Rd camera by Roko Club, entering the two tiny CPZones CS & RV, stay a while and leave the same way without getting a fine?"No!  "LTN" is a convenient shorthand for such schemes but the rules and signs vary.  The Hartington Road scheme is No Motor Vehicles northbound past Chiswick Quay except for permit holders, and permits are only for residents who live within CPZs CS and RV.The Thames Road scheme is quite different, banning traffic (with various exceptions such as buses and taxis) from driving between Kew Bridge and Grove Park Road in either direction unless accessing somewhere between those points.

Richard Jennings ● 2048d

I'm afraid I don't know which roads are covered by the CS and RV zones.   However, entry from the A316 via Hartington Road is residents only.
(It is different to the Strand one where anyone can enter / exit, so long as they don't pass through.) So if a cab (of any kind) enters and leaves by that route, they would get fined. They would need to enter via Burlington or Stavely instead — and cross over the rail bridge if heading to e.g. Spencer Road. They'd then be able to exit onto the A316 via Hartington Road if they want to. If they're coming from Richmond, then there's a detour.  If they were coming from Hogarth Roundabout, then they'd likely have have taken the Burlington Lane or Sutton Ct Rd route anyway.

Currently (and the route that is still on Google Maps!):
New route:

Ed Saper ● 2048d

As I read this the plan in H&F is to allow 'local' cab firms to apply for exemption and 'educate' Uber drivers about the restrictions. There are a limited number of occasions at which it is practical to use a local firm and the notion that it is possible to educate the 10s of thousands of drivers using taxi booking apps is nonsense.It seems to me that this is an acknowledgement of the problem and a small step in the right direction but to solve the issue why not just exempt all private hire vehicles registered with TfL? I am willing to bet the reason is they make up a substantial proportion of the fine revenue being collected from these schemes.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 2048d

Your natty diagrams are all very well but it's a nonsense if you happen to live close to junction of Hartington Rd and Cavendish Rd and have family from afar travelling via Chiswick Bridge!  Talk about loop the loop and round the houses!

Jennifer selig ● 2048d

Hi Jennifer - I think the Google Maps screenshot exactly demonstrates your point!If your family are coming over Chiswick Bridge by car and heading to an address off Hartington Road, just past the LTN entrance, then they will have to drive for an extra mile and it will take them an extra 5 minutes - or more if there is traffic.When they exit, they can take the direct route.  I don't live in the LTN, so I don't have a strong opinion.However, my first flat in Chiswick was in Thornton Avenue.  I moved in after the residents had lobbied the council to block off the entrance to TGT.  For the inconvenience of not having a direct turn in/out, we all benefited from less traffic and much less noise.  I've lived in Paxton Road (one way to prevent drivers using it to skip Hogarth Roundabout) and Whitehall Park Road, (cul-de-sac) and now live in a one-way crescent. We've picked the roads because there is substantially less / no through traffic, which is a good thing usually.

Ed Saper ● 2047d

What a crazy situation.  Residents are unable to get a mini cab home with heavy shopping, a disability or to stay safe.

Lena Armstrong ● 2047d

That's terrible! At least they haven't done that in Chiswick......yet. 

Ed Saper ● 2047d

There is nowhere in Chiswick, except maybe some high rise flats, where a minicab cannot drop someone off very close to their door.One wonders what those who claim there is are trying to achieve.

Ken Munn ● 2047d

One wonders how cab drivers - black, mini or otherwise - would know what they can and cannot do.Unless, Ken, you think they all log on to this forum prior to dropping off a passenger. You know, maybe while they idle at a signal they log in, have a peek, ask a few questions and wait for a response assuming there will be one. Before the light turns green.

David Lesniak ● 2046d

He must think the reports of Uber cabs turning back when confronted with the signs for entering Grove Park from the south are all lies. Meanwhile we have deserted streets at night with 80% of entry roads restricted in some way, and the Militant Cycle Lobby laughing at women’s concerns.

Russell Pearson ● 2046d

I think you missed a couple of things the militant cycling lobby think:1. Old people who struggle with heavy shopping and therefore take car to shops, should instead stay at home at all times, never go out and have everything delivered to them.2. Problems with wheelchair access (both on and off the bus) from the new floating island bus stops is a myth, but even if it is not wheelchair users should just suck it up (or like old people never go out).I have probably missed a couple more

Justin Stephenson ● 2046d

I don't think it is possible to deny that taxi drivers are avoiding LTNs and areas with newly imposed traffic restrictions as there are so many reports of this happening.The important question this raises is why is there no way to ensure SatNav systems are updated promptly with new restrictions. It is difficult to see beyond the reason being that local authorities are reluctant to distribute this data even though it would help LTNs achieve their stated purporse.

Mark Evans ● 2046d

..... but these LTN are only temporary - didn't you read what Hounslow Council said when we discovered all these unasked for LTNs were imposed on us!

Jennifer selig ● 2046d

"One wonders how cab drivers - black, mini or otherwise - would know what they can and cannot do." Aren't the Sat Nav providers part of the problem?  They're the ones who turned some local roads and cabs into rat runs in the first place.  Before then, you needed to know the local area to take advantage of the cut throughs! It is disappointing that Hounslow or TFL didn't engage with Google Maps, Waze, Apple Maps, Uber etc. to plot these LTNs in before they launched. I suspect Google will catch up in time — the algorithm will presumably "see" cars doing U Turns at Hartington Road. In the meantime, anyone can make a report in the Google app or desktop site to tell them about road closures, one way restrictions etc.  

Ed Saper ● 2046d

Exactly right. The problem with the delayed updates is that it creates uncertainty which means that taxi drivers avoid an area in which changes have been made as a precaution.

Mark Evans ● 2046d

Can satnavs cope with the timed restrictions for school roads?

Vivienne Cox ● 2046d

Not that I know of, timed closures is difficult.They could have run an experiment on simply putting in legal restrictions- similar to the obscure Thames Road one, and the updating the sat nav companies. That would not have suited their strategy master however.https://support.google.com/mapcontentpartners/answer/9359673?hl=en

Russell Pearson ● 2046d

Doesn't Staveley have a timed closure in the morning as well?If the Sat Navs can't handle that, then they'd need to send all traffic down Burlington Lane instead - leaving the Staveley cut through for locals who know the restrictions.Perhaps in some cases just a 2 hour week-day restriction might provide a most of the benefits of a permanent restriction without the (expensive!) need for permits, ANPR cameras etc.That sort of approach works with CPZs - on the South Acton estate there's just a weekday 9-10am and 2-3pm restriction, but that removed all of the long term parking / dumping of cars.Of course, if Google gets smart and adds timed closure capabilities...then back to square one.  Wasn't there a campaign ages ago to get Wellesley Road removed as a cut through on Google Maps - without requiring a road closure?  I guess that didn't work.

Ed Saper ● 2046d

In the US it’s known as the ‘Waze Effect’, some activists have played the system reporting closures when there’s none. Of course a virtual closure would enable the opposite with some in the know, able to game the system. It could however produce a marked overall drop in cut through traffic. Sadly, this does against LCC’s ideology, and as they have so many local authorities in their pocket now, it won’t get tried.

Russell Pearson ● 2046d

If it's felt necessary to close a road, then close it properly with a barrier and accept the consequences in return for the perceived benefits. The experimental mess we have now, with open roads and confusing signs and hidden cameras and secret exemptions, just looks like a cynical way for the council to make money and does little to improve facilities for pedestrians and cyclists - or even for local residents.

Peter Evans ● 2046d

I guess because the intention wasn't to close the road, but to prevent through traffic and the use of residential streets as rat runs. The problem with permanent barriers is that they don't just block rat runners, but local residents, buses, emergency vehicles — and anyone else you want to exempt, like visitors, carers, school minibuses, delivery vans, council vehicles (!), taxis etc.
Gates / openable barriers wouldn't be much better — apart from the poor optics of creating gated enclaves, they can break at the wrong times.   I'd have thought the main issue is privacy with the ARPN cameras, but perhaps that horse has already bolted with the huge number of them in London already.

Ed Saper ● 2046d

And you rarely see a black cab in my part of Chiswick so you  have to use a mini cab/ uber.It is also difficult for older people or those with reduced mobility.Or when it is pouring down with rain!

Helen Martin ● 2046d

One assumes most passengers know how to get to where they're going - especially if they're going to their own front door. Therefore the passenger tells the driver how to get there. Something I've done in the past because Chiswick is outside of the obligatory 'knowledge' area for cabbies. Local minicabs will be well aware of the recent restrictions.

Ken Munn ● 2046d

"London's famous taxis (black cabs) can be booked in advance, hailed on the street, or picked up from designated taxi ranks."Helen I don't think you are looking in the right place or for the right thing. I know there are other options eg radio black cabs but you need someone who uses them to help you (and not me who doesn't).  There are also black cabs which take wheelchairs.  I'm sure the facility is there but it is just a matter of connecting with it.  Everything is easier if you have a mobile phone and I would urge everyone to move towards this technology even if it is only a non smart pay as you go one to start with. It is always useful if you use one that others can help you with as there are so many different types.A bit more planning perhaps than when we were all younger.

Philippa Bond ● 2046d

Completely agree with Ken.  Is the problem that people don't know where they are or where they are going?  Which is worrying.  I remember some years ago being with some kids on a trip and was amazed how they didn't know how to contact their parents and relied on others to know their address and  telephone numbers.  I know that my husband from the age of five travelled on a bus to school and could recite the address where he lived, his name and who he lived next to.  (They didn't have phones then.)

Philippa Bond ● 2046d

Easier to remember your phone number when it is only 4 digits long.....and every time you pick up the phone (which we loved doing as kids!) you would recite it to the caller!

Ed Saper ● 2046d

"apart from the poor optics of creating gated enclaves"Those with better vision can see enclaves have already been created but only in upwardly mobile areas.

David Lesniak ● 2045d

Another pointless post, Ken.One (Ken) assumes the only passengers are those that live here. One (Ken) assumes the driver will do as they are told - yeah, like that'll happen given a black cabbie and/or Uber driver relying solely on an app that controls their every move. One (Ken) assumes local minicabs are most assuredly well aware. Though there is no evidence of that.Once I came in to Heathrow and realized I had no cash. I walked up and down the taxi stand trying to find a driver who would take card - mind you they all had stickers saying they would. Finally I gave up and got in a black cab and told the driver precisely how to get to the shop because the plan was to run in, get cash and run back out. He did what he wanted which made it more of a pain. So I paid him what I would have paid an Uber and didn't tip him. He went nuts. I told him to sort out what he advertises and maybe that wouldn't happen.Let me help Ken with his next post: TLTR

David Lesniak ● 2045d

"They're the ones who turned some local roads and cabs into rat runs in the first place. "There are no 'rat runs'. There are public roads that drivers should be able to use legitimately to get from A to B in the most efficient and safe manner. And drivers are not rats!

Alex Shpinkov ● 2045d

Clearly neither Kenn nor Philipa have had the joy of directing a cab into the middle of Grove Park from the south side, avoiding all the camera PCN points etc. Or ordered one to pick them up there. Many Uber just turn back and cancel the job when they see all the warning signs.But based on ignorant bliss, they’re happy to pontificate.

Russell Pearson ● 2045d

Alex, I do apologise for inadvertently triggering you I was using colloquial English to describe the use of minor residential roads to avoid congested main roads and hadn't considered the offence it might cause. I had no intention of calling you or anyone else (including myself!) a rat or to suggest that you were doing anything illegal or immoral.   You raise an important point — language can be quite loaded, so perhaps this forum could suggest a new word to go from A to B efficiently and smartly. Can I suggest Urban Artiste — because it takes skill and knowledge to navigate using minor roads.  It is the best I could come up with in 30 seconds — I hope others can do better.   TRIGGER WARNING
I believe we need to act quickly — already I see the word Chipsters (C.H.I.P.S. Causing Havoc In People's Streets — British Army slang for urban warfare married to hipsters) being used to describe rat runners / urban artistes. Once we've rebranded the term, we then need to deal with the narrative put out in the media referring to the increase in traffic on minor roads, which some have suggested is down to increased Sat Nav use. I don't read the Guardian personally — I read Mail Online and The Times, so I'm conflicted posting this — but here we go: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/25/rat-running-residential-uk-streets-satnav-apps

Ed Saper ● 2045d

I'm sort of repeating myself here, but what the heck: When I drive over Chiswick Bridge from the direction of Richmond, and want to get to my home on Sutton Court Road, south of the A4, I don't consider that I'm 'rat-running', I'm just heading home. Of course, not being among the tiny group of lucky residents exempt from the ANPR's fine-generating eye, I can no longer use Hartington Road, but must take the more circuitous route via the southern bit of Staveley Road or, if it's school time, Burlington Lane. Does anyone really believe that these pointless and unasked-for restrictions will be removed when the six-month 'experimental' period has expired?

Colin Jordan ● 2045d

How did taxis and minicabs and even normal traffic manage to negotiate road closures before there were sat navs?

Peter Evans ● 2045d

> Does anyone really believe that these pointless and unasked-for restrictions will be removed when the six-month 'experimental' period has expired?No, LBH’s puppet master wants as many roads closed as possible to promote his anti-car, pro-bicycle, 2-wheeled utopian vision.

Russell Pearson ● 2045d

They engaged their brains more.  They had experience and knew the roads and didn't just depend on a piece of IT to sort their life out for them.We used to make arrangements to meet people under the clock at the station at a particular time and looked at a map and had an idea of where we were going.  What I see now is people who are not aware of their surroundings and expect to do everything using a bit of IT which when it doesn't work properly eg the battery is flat are hopelessly lost.We should understand that this IT is NOT the be-all-and-end-all and be aware of and make use of our own inherent ability and analyse and reach our own conclusions.  Use it or lose it!Perhaps we should give more respect to those who bother to learn The Knowledge.

Philippa Bond ● 2045d

What happened to knowing how to discern north by checking what side of a tree moss grows on?  When will children start using sextants again?  Will we never learn?

Kieran Fox ● 2045d

There are roads I like using and others just avoid, I'm  lost 80% of the timeanyhow.  Have SatNav but don't have the patience to use it they send you on a route you might not like.

Janice Evans ● 2045d

Have any of you ladies ever been followed by another driver, that is quite scary, fortunately was in an area where I knew all the back roads and manage to lose him.  Not sure it would be possible to do that now with all the closures.

Janice Evans ● 2045d

You could argue for an exemption for all of Grove Park — you're not a chipster cutting through to Kew Bridge. That's what the LTN is there for — restricting through traffic, and you're not through traffic! You're just going through to get home. When you go to work, you can still take the Hartington Road route (for now!) If you're working night shift and coming home in the morning then Staveley will be closed for the school, which would be a bugger. We regularly used the Hartington route when heading back to Whitehall Park Road — mainly to avoid traffic and get home quicker. The problem with LTNs is that if they work and benefit enough local residents, they tend to get quite popular, even if they're not able to do something that they used to be able to. In answer to your question, no they probably won't be removed after the trial period, because that would be a deliberate decision to create a "rat run" and send more traffic down residential roads.
The best you can do is ensure you're not personally inconvenienced by it and get it watered down.

Ed Saper ● 2045d

"...send more traffic down residential roads."So sending more traffic along Burlington lane lined up with residential houses on SE side is OK. Traffic along Mortlake Rd is OK, too. But traffic along Hartington Rd/Thames Rd - is 'rat running' and must be stopped. OK.

Alex Shpinkov ● 2045d

Going back to the point about taxi drivers not knowing how to navigate the roads, so passengers should direct them - my daughter, living in Islington doesn’t drive so wouldn’t know where the closures are and how to navigate them and therefore couldn’t direct a taxi driver. My husband subsequently  had to deliver some of her belongings to her and so was legitimately seeking access to the road where her flat was - he tried and tried to work out the route in but had to give up, park some distance away. Which explains why taxi drivers also give up - they don’t want to get caught out in a convoluted access and exit route.

Alison Gascoigne ● 2045d

And a lot more traffic down the A4 too don't forget — and that's got houses on both sides. 
Perhaps they should adopt the Heathrow plan and give some respite — close the A4 for one week a month and send the traffic down Hartington and local roads. 
That would be a lot fairer. 

Ed Saper ● 2045d

And a lot more traffic down the A4 too don't forget — and that's got houses on both sides. 
Perhaps they should adopt the Heathrow plan and give some respite — close the A4 for one week a month and send the traffic down Hartington and local roads. 
That would be a lot fairer. 

Ed Saper ● 2045d

Thanks for the reply, it is very reasonable. And comparing a 3 lane in each direction A4 and 1 lane in each direction Burlington Lane, Mortlake Rd, Hartington Rd is very appropriate. But perhaps people who live on some roads are more equal than those living on some others and sending more traffic to urlington Lane, Mortlake Rd is indeed the way to go.

Alex Shpinkov ● 2045d