Forum Topic

Green v Pike - the court of public opinion.

Having recently read a thread about the Kensington cycle lane it occurred to me that amongst the posts was a microcosm of the past 4 years on the topic of CS9 and cycling.I don't know either Paul Green or Tom Pike and I hope both gentlemen will accept me using their names.On the one hand (Green) you have a person who calls for a proper debate on the wider aspects of a transport strategy for ALL Londoners. And on the other (Pike) a single-minded proponent of one mode - cycling. I notice that Pike uses all manner of supposed public surveys to support his contention that the 'public' are in support of cycling and any road infrastructure consequences that result. He talks about award winning survey companies and the Market Research Society. Last year after a FOI request to the Department of Transport I received a copy of the Kantar research which the DfT and Boris Johnson use to claim the public support for 'schemes'. If you inspect the research you quickly realise that it, along with most other research/consultations conflates walking and cycling in the questions to get the answers they want. So, the responses are driven by the majority (approx 80%) walkers against the clear minority (approx 5%) cyclists. In fact the Kantar survey is so procedurally flawed it should be reported to the MRS - oh wait a moment aren't Kantar one of the largest subscription providers to the MRS!We saw in the original CS9 survey a blatant manipulation and mis-representation of the responses by TfL.Another recent example of the desperation of the cycling lobby was by one of their high priests, Will Norman (supposed walking and most definitely cycling TfL commissioner) who stated in a recent tweet - 'New research from Oxford shows that people riding bikes have 84% lower life cycle CO2 emissions than non-cyclists' - go figure that claim.If you add in the £262 million that TfL have spent (FOI response)in the four years, 2016 - 20, on implementing cycle lanes compared to walking (no figures available, but probably in the order of single millions) then the disparity between words 'walking and cycling' and actual action is stark.I have only scratched the surface of all the issues (London wide and Chiswick/Hammersmith) that are being imposed on us by the Government, Councils, Lobby Groups etc.What is clear, however, is the pressing need to recover economically from Covid. We need to get London moving (en masse) to save the centre (ghost town) and reinvigorate local businesses and hospitality.We, the people, should have a say and our voices must be heard.

David Millar ● 2056d82 Comments

David, I was going to stay out of this, but Stuart and in particular Ken's response are too good to pass up. Firstly, Stuart, the self appointed assessor of the worth of forum posts, castigates the OP for not having an 'open argument', whatever that means, and then dismisses it as another 'dull' cylcing post. Strange he chooses only to dismiss the posts of those who oppose some of these schemes, never those in favour. Odd...Then we have Ken, who seems to spend an inordinate amount of time lurking on this forum and pops up whenever there is a cycling related thread. But never of course to engage with the points, just to make smugh comments and then disappear. Seems to be all part of the playbook, discredit, irritate, distract. There is a broad point here. The proponets of these schemes are focused on one single transport mode, cycling. They refuse to engage in actual debate around facts and outcomes, but hide behind dodgy data and loaded 'polls'. Refuse to criticise anything Hounslow does, not a great surprise seeing as key cabinet members are also members of their own little group. Not a great start for open discussion and compromise.This is after all a discussion forum. If people are bored with certain topics dont bother reading about them. I take no lectures on politeness from Stuart Kerr. And yes, Tom is 100% myopic. I am sure he is a lovely chap, but he is a classic WFH middle class professional ,lives in a quiet leafy road with no displaced traffic, a short stroll from local amenities and never seems to have been on a bus in his life.

Paul Green ● 2056d

"Virtually every one riddled with spiteful ad hominem attacks.  How on earth Tom Pike still has the patience to bother with you is amazing."Stuart, you mean like this:-"Topic:Doris watch....Posted by:Stuart KerrDate/Time:01/12/20 18:52:00Evening Georgina,I presume these E mails you mentioned to Maddy are from Claire.Word of in haste advice from me.  Sod Claire.  Beware Loraine.Claire is riddled with all sorts of oddball problems – and her attack on you was grotesquely misjudged bad timing for which she got what she deserved and can only blame herself.  But she's always seemed reasonably straightforward to me – in a twisted crackpot sort of way.  She'll go silent for a few weeks but she'll be back..Whereas Loraine Pemberton is plain nasty.  A sneaky bitch of the worst variety who deals in devil-work - sending PM's to all sorts of posters, recruiting agents - telling tales out of school and getting them to do her dirty work.  It wouldn't surprise me if your name hasn't been the subject of many a PM courtesy of  Pemberton..Everything she posts on that forum is designed to demonstrate how kind she is, how generous, how open hearted.  Bollocks.  I've always been able to see right through that evil cow of a woman and advise you to stay well clear.  It's all utterly false.  She won't ever come at you head-on.  No way!  If she hits it'll be from some direction you won't see coming.  Briefed by Loraine..Hope this helps..Stay strong,Bests  Stu x"

Loraine Pemberton ● 2056d

Tom, full marks for effort but do you even read this stuff. Its paper thin and full of the usual generalisations and platitudes. Not a signle piece of actual evidence. A promo piece from an architecture firm looking for clients. But lets have a look: * A 2014 TFL study says people arriving by foot or bike visit town centres more often than by car. Hmmmm.... so maybe people who live more locally and so can walk visit more often. Those by car may live further and so visit more occasionally, but with a car they probably spend more. No evidence one way or another here from TFL though* Lots of nice stuff about Copenhagen, sounds nice. But its a town really, 600k people so about the size of Hounslow and Ealing combined, but far denser. Well designed with comprehensive town planning. So hard to draw many comparisons with London and they certainly did not put bikes ahead of public transport* Altrincham highlighted as an example of active travel and benefits for shops.Sorry, I gave up at this point. My cousin lives there and I know the area v well. A desolate 60s pedestrian arcade suffered a death blow from the Trafford Centre, half of it still empty. Less than 100 yards of two small side roads were part pedestrianised around the old marketplace and this is a sucessful area, with an existing market and new food stalls. It has though displaced shoppers and diners from the old nearby shopping arcade and main street. But generally, traffic in wider area is still awful, there are no cycling measures, no new walking routes, and many local bus routes have been withdrawn. If the latter is a poster child for active travel Tom you are going to have to try harder. If you told the residents there they would laugh you out of town.There is much we can agree on. We want nicer public areas, more green spaces, less noise and pollution. But choking central Chiswick, reducing buses to a crawl, and diverting lots of traffic onto roads surrounding the lovely green areas we already have is not the answer. Many people live, walk and even cycle on the roads around our greens, which are being made more unpleasant by this scheme you obsessively support.

Paul Green ● 2056d

This is an amazing discussion. We are talking about an area that I have visited regularly since I was 14. I spent many parts of school summer holidays in these very streets that Tom claims to know all about from reading a couple of articles. I still visit regularly. Lets be 100% clear. Firstly, there is NO active travel initiatives. None. A couple of short stretches of side roads, barely used, were pedestrianised to expand the current market place and create new stalls. These were mainly used for access by market traders and local shops, and still can be.Its a good idea, it worked well. THere are some nice bars and restaurants and an Everyman cinema. Some of the reviews of the eateries in my simple view are OTT. It has revitalised a small area but its an advert for good urban design and engaging with local business. It had no impact on local travel, cars buses, bikes or walking. There are still many large car parks, most local bus services have been axed. There are no walking schemes.So yes its a good idea. But again, it has nothing to do with active travel or cycle lanes, and Tom's absolute refusal to acknowledge this is astonishing.I have not looked at occupancy rates. I can tell you that in the old precint itself there are many charity and pound shops. The largest site there was a 3 floor Rackhams department store that is empty. A once busy precint is hanging on. It has seen v little benefit from the Old Market square. The actual high road is more of an evening drinking destination, with a pretty mixed clientele. The more well to do drinks and diners head to nearby Hale. Tom. Please, this is not a debate you can win. I can run you through every inch of this area. Please detail to me the active travel initiatives in Altrincham and the broader area that have supported this scheme. Clue, there are none

Paul Green ● 2055d

Tom, slippery as ever. Lets take you back to the post on this report that we are now discussing.You said 'many studies published on hte effect on bussinesses of increased active travel. All have been positive'/.Your words. But in the case of Alty:* there is no active travel provision as part of the regeneation, none. No cycle lanes, no quiet ways. But public transport has suffered, most people arrive by car as they awlays did, the council was pressured to lower parking costs. * the increase in occupancy rate has been seen in the existing 1960s precint, specifically with the rebuilding on a number of sites to increase floor space and create two story shops with double level grass frontage. Nothing to do with allocation of space from cars to retail.* The successul new market place was delivered through part pedestrianising a couple of rear access roads. These are still available for store deliveries and market traders. There was only a handful of parking spaces, very little traffic. No residential homes in this area, all commercial. Most of the new retail here are stalls that expand the existing covered market, maybe 2-3 new commercial permanent venuesSo given the above, and your opening post, please explain how active travel has anything to do with this. I can tell you, it doesnt. There are loads of car parks, including a big Sainsbury I did not mention before. What lessons does W4 learn from this? Mine is the need to listen to business and local communities and deliver good urban planning. Also in the case of Altrincham it has extensive parking. Traffic is a big problem in wider area and buses and better and cheaper public transport will be the only to solve this.

Paul Green ● 2055d

"reallocation of space away from cars has benefits for retail"This applies only to the design and planning of the pavement amenity itself. Take away the car and  use that space for tables, gardens, wider footpath, that's all good. But you haven't taken away the car. You've just shoved it someplace else. But as you know, in the examples you've given here as well as your examples in previous similar discussions, pedestrianized town centers benefit from ample supply of parking. In order for any central commercial zone to thrive, it must provide a balance of amenity for all modes of transit. You have got to get people there in order to spend. The majority of people simply do not come by bike. They never will. And evidence you presented indicates a 20-year bedding in before retailers will see any benefit of cyclists spending more and creating a noticeable difference. Your evidence. Ruth Mayorcas loves to cite Kingston as a more local example of how pedestrianization might work. Kingston. With the mall. And all those multi-story car parks just off the high street. Do you not get Westfield is nothing more than an indoor high street? And it works, for good or ill, because it has the entire experience - arrival, shopping, eating, staying, relaxing, exercising, mingling, departure - down to a science. And because it can service that density of customers, it creates a social setting conducive to spending. And that is precisely what is happening now in the regeneration of Brentford. There it is being cocked up royally on many levels, but the need was determined and accommodated.  Paul is spot on, Tom. You focus on only one piece of the puzzle then contort it as the be all and end all for all that ails the High Road. It's become your brand of snake oil and you double down when nobody buys it. That suggests its rancid snake oil, at that.

David Lesniak ● 2055d

TOm said'I don't think anyone is claiming that the future of high street retail depends on the majority of people cycling to the shops.' Its quite hard to know what you are claiming to be frank. The logical conclusion of your arguments and posts would suggest all high streets would boom in this scenario as apparently cyclists spend so much money, so why are you not claiming that? 'If it's less convenient to for them to drive they will be shopping closer to home and on their local high streets'I think this cuts to the chase. So you want to block the roads to make it less convenient to drive. So in practice that means actively creating congestion.Which roads would you like to close? If we take Westfield, to stop some of your neighbours driving there, what do you want to close? Where would all the traffic go, as it tries to escape? I guess not down your road, but I wonder how the people who do live on those roads feel? How do buses navigate these obstructions, or trade vehicles?I have an idea, if we want to focus on the local, lets start by not approving any more out of town retail. Surely a better idea than choking our urban streets as you suggest. Lets also look at parking, westfield sits on a tube station and there are a couple more in walking distance, there is a bus terminus on site. So why 4,500 parking spaces?Lets look closer to home, we have a new football stadium that sits on railway station with tubes nearbly. So why is provision made for a thousand plus cars to park in W4?Lets address the source of all the traffic before we randomly shut roads and throttle capacity.

Paul Green ● 2055d

Tom, as ever I think we and yourself have lost track of what you are arguing for. A recap, Tom, lets take you back to the post on this report that we are now discussing.You said 'many studies published on hte effect on bussinesses of increased active travel. All have been positive'. But in one of the specific cases in the report, Altrincham in Greater Manchester, there is no active travel provision, none. Its also tenuous in the extreme to argue there was a reallocation of space from cars to retail.Without rehashing it all, the best analogy is Essex Place and Empire House. Note this is a hypethetical for clarity. Lets say that the council engage with the local business and developed a plan, two bits that are not explicitly linked:* The eastern end of the current stretch of essex Place (the road between the Sainsburys loading bay entrance and the bollards just before the current pedestrian area in front of Sainsburys) was part pedestrianised. It would still allow access to stalls and rear of shops for loading. So half a dozen parking space lost on a dead end, dirty and unpleasant back road. This was smartened up and more market stores put in, expanding the stalls currently in front of Sainsburys. One or two of the units that back on to here could be opened up as bars.* Then on the High Road, the often vacant retail units of Empire House were rebuilt to make two storey retail, with larger floor areas and new nice glass frontages. Ignore the wider residential development and pretend its not happening. This plan was based on consultation with local and national business and the local community.So that would be it. There would be no bike lanes, no new guided walking paths, perhaps a bike rack or two, but not that obvious. At the same time, local bus services would be cut significantly, some withdrawn altogether. But there would still be two large multi storey car parks and lots of other surface car parks (this is for context as these exist in Altrincham)Now, the vacant retail units of Empire House prove easier to let, offering a store size that is hard to find in the rest of the area. The expanded market stalls are also popular. Its hard to draw a direct link between these two factors given the wider retail and food locations along the High Road, but of course it helps.if you are Tom or a cyclist lobbyist, firstly you claim this shows the benefit of active travel. Even though there is no provision of active travel, no data on how people travel, and with fewer bus services and extensive parking in the area its likely more people than ever arrive by car.You then also claim that this scheme shows the benefit of allocating road space from cars to retail. At a certain obscure level yes, but remember this is a dirty dead end road that is actually being tidied up and brought to life. No traffic is diverted, no residents find it harder to get home, emergency services are not impacted, buses are not delayed.So, this is a slightly simplistic but generally fair comparison of what happened in Altrincham. For those that can be bothered to read it, I will let you draw your own conclusions. To me it simply shows good urban planning and the power of engagement.Remember, this report was promoted by one of the most vocal advocates of CS9 and cycling on this forum. WHo claims there is lots of evidence for his views that cycling is good for High Streets. And some wonder why I get frustrated with these repeated and palpably false claims

Paul Green ● 2054d

Stuart K, I pm'd you, but not sure that it got through.Yes, Paul and Tom eventually reached common ground on parking via a segue to Altrincham (not a place I know) and Tom's continued misunderstanding of research which, to save readers of the Forum, I'm happy to explain to him via a pm.Although it does seem we have two camps in operation the reality should be much more nuanced. No-one is saying that cycling is a bad thing. The problem is manifested in the construction of a dedicated allocation of road space without any serious understanding (study) of the actual needs of cyclists.Cyclists have very different needs; the commuter fastest route from A to B person, the keen exercise type, a gentle visit to shops and socialising and a family out for fun. All have different destinations and time limitations. Has anyone asked cyclists (as a whole) what they would like to see, specifically in the geographic location of Chiswick.We then have to consider the total population and the transport routes through the area. What are their requirements (public transport, walking) and how does that relate to the movement of traffic as efficiently as possible.Basically a 'problem' with many moving parts which engenders conflict - a quart in to a pint pot. Winners/losers who decides? Should it be the majority voice or should a minority have protected characteristics. I guess that's where the debate should be.However, we have the ultimate decision maker on hand - the Government. I read in today's papers that the Government has just discovered bus lanes and will be publishing a strategy next week for local authorities to develop bus priority routes. Mmmm didn't Hounslow just get rid of one along CHR!Scratch your head time folk, look up to the heavens and retire to the pub (soon) to fit that quart in to a pint.I'll finish off topic if you will forgive me, but to my mind it sums up the overall situation we find ourselves in. The Hammersmith Society recently published a note -  http://www.hammersmithsociety.org.uk/hammersmith-bridge-better-repairs/ - in which they describe a well thought out (I'm no engineer, but it made sense to me) proposal to fix the bridge economically and in a reasonable time frame.However, given the various vested interests (Government, Council, Engineering Companies) their suggestions can't get attention.Says it all really.

David Millar ● 2054d

Tom, I am fully aware of what the Metrolink is, it provides mainly a commuter route to Manchester and also footy fans to Old Trafford. The Altrincham branch runs on former rail track that used to offer train services into Manchester. I am not sure if you are confusing overall expansion of Metrolink across the city with capacity on the local line. Some shoppers of course use it as do chilcren etc. But at the same time bus routes have been decimated, buses which serve the local residential areas that are nowhere near the Metrolinl.You jump around its hard to pin you down. I forget how much the area has changed. In fact, beyond the measures I mentioned, there were two other much bigger developmnets:* A low  level and badly maintained surface car park behind the railway lines (just to the south of Stamford New Rd) was redeveloped. This included a multiscreen cinema, some offices and a large gym. PLus a multi-storey car park with more parking than before* A derelect site jus to the west of this was developed into a large Sainsburys with a large car park. This offers the normal 2 hours free parking and is a 5 minute walk from the preceintSo Tom, as well as major new developments, the remodelling of some existing retail space, Altrincham saw a huge increase in parking. That was a key element of its response to the Trafford centre. Again, no active travel.I dont particulary want to see a multi-storey car park in Chiswick, but plentiful parking was a key factor in the renaissance of a town centre that you seem keen to trumpet. So get on google and find some more irrelevant facts about an area you don't know or some more 'studies'.

Paul Green ● 2054d