Forum Topic

Porsche's Synthetic Fuel

(I have opened this thread in response to the post by Maggie Dodge in Paul Campbell's "London Cycle Routes" thread, since imo it is important that it doesn't get bogged down in the usual pile-up which cycling threads seem to induce).Anyhow, Maggie posted:"Newsflash As clean as electricity: Porsche to start making synthetic fuel next year that could slash petrol-engined cars' CO2 emissions by 85%"This is encouraging, but only part of the pollution story, as follows.It may be that this development will reduce CO2 emissions from (synthetic) fuelled cars, which should be a good thing re. greenhouse gases.However if I understand it correctly, much of the other harmful air pollution from cars is down to minute chemical particulates coming from braking systems and tyres, also general road wear, rather than simple exhaust emissions.Meaning that we shouldn't just stop with cleaner fuel - we need to see fewer vehicles on the roads, period.More here:https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ella-roberta-kissi-debrah-s-death-from-asthma-linked-to-car-pollution-kltwj7k57https://app.croneri.co.uk/whats-new/particulate-matter-pollution-vehicle-tyres-and-brakes

Richard Cathcart ● 2070d57 Comments

Has anyone told the motor industry?

Bruce Hammal ● 2070d

Always great to see innovation.  I think the calculations of 85% less emissions are based on taking into account the embodied carbon within existing vehicles, this said I would love to look at the research to really understand the variables.

Matthew Swain ● 2070d

I can't remember ever seeing quite so many TV commercials for cars - particularly electric vehicles of one kind or another. This is a time of great change in transport and any manufacturer who  gets it wrong will be in big trouble. I agree that all beneficial innovation in this area is to be welcomed but we have to have a coherent strategy to avoid backing the  wrong horse.The present government has signalled that it supports the EV option but there are huge unresolved issues over battery production and disposal not to mention the provision of adequate charging points and of course the question of just how green such vehicles really are. Whatever Porsche have come up with, or hydrogen as a fuel, are also possibilities, but I suspect that as in all format wars there will eventually be only one winner. Steam cars were the way forward in the early days of motoring, then along came the internal combustion engine! Whatever route we take into the future cars will remain the personal transport of choice unless governments worldwide are prepared to take draconian action, and for electoral reasons alone that is never going to happen. Like it or abhor it, the car is here to stay - at least for a good few decades yet.

Bruce Hammal ● 2070d

This is the video from 2015 suggesting that CHR's air quality was dangerous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5_KXN9eOtw&t=441s

Ed Saper ● 2070d

I often wonder if enough attention is paid to the emissions generated by commercial vehicles and plant. Obviously virtually every heavy lorry you see is diesel powered, but passing a large construction site recently I was stuck by the sheer number of dump trucks, bulldozers, excavators and all the other heavy machinery that was involved, all of it pumping out pollution all day long.  Major construction in London never seems to stop. It's all well and good targeting the private motorist, but there's a lot more too it than that.

Bruce Hammal ● 2070d

Well there I was all hopeful of a way out of this mess .... anyway so is the pollution on the roads better now with the cycle lane and LTNs I really hope this catastrophic change to our way of lives is worth it !

Maggie Dodge ● 2070d

Stop start vehicles use a powerful battery which is expensive to replaceabou £250 the cheapest.

Janice Evans ● 2070d

Think I have suggested before some kind of filter system beneath the vehicle to collect particles, no idea if or how it could be done.

Janice Evans ● 2070d

Read somewhere that approximately £1000 per vehicle sold goes on advertising, marketing, sponsorship, PR, etc.

Ken Munn ● 2070d

In answer to Maggie's question — yes, the pollution on the roads is better now with the cycle lane and LTNs — but not directly attributable to either. 
In fact there have been "dramatic improvements in air quality" across London over the last few months. https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/air_quality_health_evidence_review_final_sept20_clean.pdf It appears that if people use their cars less, there is less air pollution — I suspect there's less traffic congestion as well.  Of course, you have to force people to stay at home and close down the local economy, so not a long term solution to the problem.  Perhaps there is a way of making walking and cycling more attractive to enough people so they voluntarily move a few of their short and local journeys to those modes and reduce the number of car journeys — without the need for anything catastrophic.

Ed Saper ● 2070d

JE: "Think I have suggested before some kind of filter system beneath the vehicle to collect particles, no idea if or how it could be done."Great minds and all that..."Most eco-conscious drivers are focused on their tailpipes, not their tires. But every time a car brakes, accelerates, or changes direction, the friction wears down the exterior of the tire, sending particles into the environment. Some remain suspended in the air, and others get swept into local waterways, where they can have devastating effects on plant and animal life. Humans produce about 6.7 million tons of tire pollution annually, according to some estimates. That’s more than enough dust and particles to outweigh the Great Pyramid of Giza.A group of master’s students from Imperial College London and the Royal College of Art had an idea: what if the tires picked up after themselves?"(You can read the rest of the article here: https://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2020/1109/A-pollution-solution-where-the-rubber-meets-the-road )

Richard Cathcart ● 2070d

Tesla offers a system that scrubs the air inside — and outside — the car. https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/putting-tesla-hepa-filter-and-bioweapon-defense-mode-to-the-test

Ed Saper ● 2070d

Put me down for a Model S. They start at £73,990.I had one turn up as an Uber once.Very nice but I'll need that final zero deleted first.

Bruce Hammal ● 2070d

Think if every car has an outside filter it would help as some people have to rely on a vehicle to get around no harm on improving them.

Janice Evans ● 2070d

many people now rely on deliveries and cabs so cannot see there being a decrease in vehicle use.

Janice Evans ● 2070d

Come back to us when you’ve done you’re homework then Mathew👍  “Always great to see innovation.  I think the calculations of 85% less emissions are based on taking into account the embodied carbon within existing vehicles, this said I would love to look at the research to really understand the variables. “

Maggie Dodge ● 2070d

eFuels have a lot going for them. They promise to allow older vehicles to be run in a CO2 neutral way.The vast infrastructure built up for fossil fuels can continue to be used. How expensive they are to produce is not yet known and may make efuelling your car a luxury few can afford.https://www.efuel-alliance.eu/en/efuelsWhat they don't solve is gridlock or obesity.For that you need active travel.

Will Watson ● 2070d

Creative solutions are always better than draconian measures. Have faith in human ingenuity, rather than those who would like nothing better than to order us all about.

Russell Pearson ● 2070d

I'm waiting with interest to see how we are to be "persuaded " to rip out our central heating boilers and dig up the garden (if we have one) in order to spend many thousands of pounds installing heat pumps. Creative thinking is fine but at some point it will lock horns with reality.

Bruce Hammal ● 2070d

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/car-makers-and-startups-get-serious-about-reusing-batteriesThis is why EV batteries are leased rather than bought - the idea is they will be exchanged and reused/recycled and not otherwise disposed of.We have a history of trying to own everything for ourselves here even when we don't have the room and know that it is bad for us.Can't we share door to door transport more?  I posted about car clubs years ago here to find out who was using them, few were and experiences were shared.  Then when I mentioned it recently I was told that they were never available when wanted.  I'd like to know that their use is being expanded enough so that they are more available when needed.  Lots of us don't need to have a car sitting outside all the time but we still need to feel that we can travel easily without one.

Philippa Bond ● 2070d

Bruce - your (presumably gas) boiler only has a limited life so at some point you would have to replace it anyway. An air-source heat pump does not require you to dig up the garden. A ground-source heat pump can operate from using bore holes if you do not want to dig up the garden.Go to Chiswick New Pool if you want to see an air-source heat pump in action.However there is no getting away from the fact that retrofitting will be expensive and that the best results will almost always only be available in a new build property.  I have just finished a virtual public meeting in which Cllr Curran (Leader of the Council) admitted that LBH does not have sufficient funding to deliver on their promise of carbon-neutral social housing by 2030.Maybe the solution is to accelerate the new build programme and possibly phase out older properties that are too expensive to retrofit.Boring old insulation remains far and a way the most effective energy saving measure that most of us can invest in.

Cllr Sam Hearn ● 2070d

Normally air source heat pumps are wall mounted.  In principle they can be used to cool as well as to heat.

Philippa Bond ● 2070d

Some EV batteries are leased and I guess that may well prove to be the model for the future, but at the moment this is at the choice of the manufacturer. I'm not sure what is happening now for example with the batteries on ageing Toyota Prius models - perhaps someone else has personal experience?I gave up my own car a couple of years ago. I was hardly using it any more and there were some Blue City charging points just down the road. Perfect I thought and joined up. In practice I never used one as you couldn't pre-book and whenever I needed one there were none available. Blue City closed their business in London a while ago. Car clubs should work in theory, but it won't be easy and it will require deep pockets (either entrepreneurial or governmental) to keep the funding going long term until it becomes a natural choice.

Bruce Hammal ● 2070d

In a normal home they won't provide enough heat to cope with cold weather. An additional top-up heating source will be required. Electricity would of course be the simplest heating alternative to gas, but unfortunately that costs about 6x the rate per therm of gas. Whichever way you look at it we are a very long way from gas being replaced as the predominant fuel for heating in the UK.

Bruce Hammal ● 2070d

While it is cold you have a better chance to work out where the draughts are.It is a shame that the New Green Deal didn't include replacing old and failed single and double glazing because that is still a substantial cost.  It does seem to have been extended.Good call Sam Hearn on the air source heat pump as we don't have enough options for seeing for ourselves.

Philippa Bond ● 2070d

Unfortunately, Will, active travel does not solve obesity either.Look no further than some of your cycle advocate buddies and LBH cabinet for evidence.It's about balance of many factors. Something that simply goes amiss with your lot. Dollars to donuts your average runner is more fit than  your average cyclist. Are they moaning about a running superhighway? Given all those cyclists on the pavement endangering their lives?

David Lesniak ● 2070d

You seem rather obsessed with cycling - I didn't mention it.Walking, running are also forms of active travel - if they are your preferred modes - enjoy.

Will Watson ● 2070d

In regard to weight gain, here's some back of envelope calculations: Your metabolism slows about 5% per decade, so by your 30s you are burning 100 fewer calories per day and 200 calories by your 40s. You would gain 10lbs per year with a calorie excess of 100, doubled for 200 calories — or nearly 1 and a half stone per year in your 40s. 100 calories is roughly equivalent to a chocolate digestive, so if you don't want to cut out your biscuit, you could potentially burn the excess with more activity. There are 4.6m car trips on an average day in London and a third of those are 2KM or less. If you walked instead of drove for a 2KM trip (roughly 20 minutes), you'd burn about 150 calories.  (Cycling, you'd burn about half that. ) Loads of other factors involved of course, but overall, if you maintain calorie intake and swap the car for walking on enough trips, you may maintain weight more easily and thus reduce obesity in the population.

Ed Saper ● 2069d

I watched a programme on tv last week concerning the development of EV's and the logistics of all motorists turning to them.Seems we're gonna need about 4 million charging points to service all 32 million drivers by 2030 and that is not logistically possible currently.Was pleased to see that the projection is that about 20 million petrol/diesel cars will still be in operation come 2030. I hope to be one of them!

Jeffrey Cope ● 2069d

The absence of enough charging points is only the tip of the iceberg. We will need a major upgrade to the national grid to deal with the increased demand. In terms of a coherent strategy to deal with the climate emergency there are many unresolved questions. We have to assume that all this extra electricity will be "green" and therefore will depend on a massive expansion in renewable projects - or of course Nuclear. Then there needs to be a full analysis of the environmental consequences of all this battery building and recycling. This is why news about alternative fuels is what we need to hear. Whether you are a petrol head or think cars are the work of the devil, they aren't going away. Their use can be discouraged and reduced somewhat but for many people and indeed countries in the world there is realistically no viable alternative. With enough encouragement, technology may well ride to the rescue, but I'm worried that with so much emphasis being placed on electric vehicles as a solution we may well end up backing the wrong horse. Horses were of course also once the way to go, then somebody noticed the manure.....

Bruce Hammal ● 2069d

Ed most short trips are to load up with shopping, most people don't shop every day and especially now we want to visit shops less so doing one shop a week.

Janice Evans ● 2069d

From my own experience, we'd like to swap our car for a plug in.  Not least because of the tax saving on a company car.However, we don't have a garage or off-street parking, so charging at home is tricky - not impossible, but you're going to find lots of extension cables on the streets until there's kerbside charging in residential areas.At the office in South Acton, pre pandemic, we had 3 people with plug in cars - and we managed that with extension cables and rented parking spaces in the new developments that had charging (about £250 per month per space).We have phase 3 power at the office, and our intention is to put in fast chargers (50-150KWH) to support up to 4 cars at a time. However, we analysed our electricity use and realised we didn't have enough to use the factory and charge the cars at the same time!  Over several months we did a bunch of work to improve our energy use - worthwhile in itself - so we now have more capacity to do rapid charging.We also costed bringing in additional power - it means digging up a street, and the cost is circa £20K - plus the electricity costs.We already used renewable sourced energy, but we'd want to generate our own if we can - we have a flat roof and installing solar panels is an option.  This is a lot of work in order to ensure I and our team can easily charge our cars.I am sure Hounslow will introduce kerbside charging in Chiswick and Ealing are making positive noises about doing it on the South Acton estate.

Ed Saper ● 2069d

Taken from a post on the Acton W3 site:"... in London, air pollution contributes to in excess of 9,400 premature deaths every year, and costs the health system annually between £1.4 billion and £3.7 billion.The main source of this pollution is road vehicles – but it’s not just their exhaust gases. The latest research carried out for the government indicates that dust from brake wear, tyre wear and road surface wear currently constitute over 60% (by mass) of particulate emissions (PM2.5 and PM10) from road transport. These fragments pollute the air and will eventually be washed into rivers and the sea. Electric vehicles do not solve this dust problem and can even make it worse, as they tend to be heavier due to their batteries. Currently no legislation is in place to limit or reduce these particles.So what can be done? Well, apart from walking or cycling instead of driving whenever you can, there’s one very simple thing you can do: Buy the LIGHTEST, smallest car that is sufficient for you. Doing so reduces every type of emission. By contrast, an SUV weighs on average 40% more than a normal car, due to its size and 4-wheel transmission.But there’s worse! Apart from the increased dust due to the extra weight, the International Energy Agency has found that SUVs are the SECOND LARGEST CAUSE of the global rise in carbon dioxide emissions over the past decade, eclipsing all shipping, aviation, heavy industry and even trucks. Each year, SUVs emit 700 mega-tonnes of CO2, about the entire output of the UK and Netherlands combined. On top of all this, studies of accident statistics in the USA found that a far higher percentage of pedestrians hit by SUVs died compared with those hit by a normal car. Having to share the road with 2-ton monsters puts people off buying a small car or cycling – the very things we need to encourage to tackle both air pollution and climate change."http://www.actonw3.com/default.asp?section=community&link=http://appasp.ActonW3.com/server/app/forum/default.asp?site=4I read recently that car manufacturers no longer make much (any?) money on selling regular cars, it's SUV's where the real profits lie, since people are willing to pay a premium for them.Which is why the manufacturers are pushing them so strongly, which in turn encourages demand, which then commands higher prices.

Richard Cathcart ● 2069d

Said before wish they would make more smaller cars more like the golf buggy but enclosed and secure that would solve problems for those who rely on a vehicle to get around.

Janice Evans ● 2069d

Good info, Richard, thanks.

Ken Munn ● 2069d

Many dealers are more interested in leasing vehicles.

Janice Evans ● 2069d

Hi Janice — yes, some trips you can't swap a car for walking because you need it to carry shopping or transport something heavy. For some, walking isn't an option regardless of distance and load. Most of the time I used a car (personal or Uber), particularly during the working day, was because I didn't have time to walk.  These were back of envelope calculations and the data is a bit old — and came from here: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-note-14-who-travels-by-car-in-london.pdf Approximately 2 million trips per day (29%) (as a driver or passenger) were for shopping and personal business — I can't say what proportion of these were for a big weekly shop. There are alternatives — for instance, getting a supermarket delivery.  But that doesn't help with obesity of course.

Ed Saper ● 2069d

Anyone who has visited Tresco in the Scillies will have realised the potential of the humble golf cart. For something a little more car-like how about the Renault Twizy — you can even take a friend!

Bruce Hammal ● 2069d

Obesity is what you eat, we walk every day but not on hot days during summer, my partner needs his car for work as carrying machinery etc.,At the moment I'm using my car once a week for shopping.

Janice Evans ● 2069d

Thanks Richard — have to admit I hadn't thought about just getting a lighter car!  I remember seeing lots of seniors using golf buggies in Florida instead of cars to get to the shops  — not just the golf course!   You can use a buggy on a road from age 14 onwards without a driver's license in the USA.

Ed Saper ● 2069d

Bruce, As I shop for other people would not get three lots of shopping in that little car, need something with a boot.

Janice Evans ● 2069d

Something like the Twizy that don't look like a toy,  small car with wide wheel base and boot.  An in between.

Janice Evans ● 2069d

Just being overweight and not taking enough exercise brings it own health problems.  Don't wait until you reach what is considered clinically obese to take action - you may find that by then you have damaged yourself already eg your joints making it more difficult to take action.  Too much of particular exercise can also cause damage - so it seems a little of everything or everything in moderation and being careful!  You can get stuck literally as you wait for rationed health service assistance.  Then it is even more difficult to not put on weight!

Philippa Bond ● 2069d

The VW e.up looks quite cute. I don't know anything about it though it seems to have been well reviewed. Being electric it is bound to be more expensive than any petrol alternative but you're future-proofed (for now).

Bruce Hammal ● 2069d

I'm sure that it will be easier as a business but there are now options for domestic solar panels too.  Grants come and go.https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/tool/solar-energy-calculator/

Philippa Bond ● 2069d

There is just so much misinformation around about EVs, tyre particulates and brake dust.The UK will not require 4 million charging points to cover 32 million cars.  On average an EV will need charged once a week (for many much less), people do not charge all at the same time and many people will charge from home over night.  The 4 million number quoted is probably 20x or more overstated.The UK grid can easily cope with us all changing to EVs - that is the view of the National Grid who ought to know about these things.EV tyre and brake dust emissions have in general only been modelled.  For some strange reason, researchers do not seem to want to get out into the real world and measure busy streets - or at least they do not want to get out very often.  When you look at actual real world data it seems the modelling is dramatically wrong.  We have real world data for how long brake pads last on EVs - it is 5x-10x longer than the equivalent ICE vehicle.  On tyre particulates, EVs are heavier than ICE cars so will go through tyres quicker, but as yet it is unclear by how much because of different driving styles.  But when researchers actually measured pollution at Blackwall tunnel, tyre particulates were around 1% of all particulates (other researchers got 12-13% at Marylebone HS).  So whilst it is important to reduce tyre particulates, and a different design of tyre could help, this is not a major issue.Batteries degrade relatively slowly, with the exception of early generation Nissan Leafs where Nissan got the design badly wrong.  EV batteries typically have an 7-8 year or 100,000 mile warranty with them. The real world data we have suggests that an EV battery will still have 70% of its capacity after 12-15 years potentially longer which is far longer than the typically ownership period of a car.  Even then EV batteries do not need to be recycled but can be used for other things. I do not have an EV, but I am convinced an EV will be my next car in a few years time

Justin Stephenson ● 2069d

Do you think battery powered cars have a better technology than hydrogen?Other than the availability of energy delivery (quite important I grant you) hydrogen seems to beat batteries on all points.The Hyundai Nexo (a hydrogen powered SUV) got 5 stars in the Green NCAP study of environmental impact.

Will Watson ● 2069d

But what about the carbon footprint of hydrogen production from natural gas? The alternative, producing it by electrolysis, although a cleaner process, is surely comparatively inefficient?

Robert Fish ● 2069d

There is a photo in one of the above contributions of a Renault Twizy.Just like to point out it doesn't come with doors!

Jeffrey Cope ● 2069d

It's not just the doors that are optional extras. The Twizy is also batteries not included - you have to lease them from Renault at about £50 per month. It's an interesting business model.

Bruce Hammal ● 2069d

Why would you make it from natural gas?The idea is hydrogen is generated from electrolysis using surplus electricity from wind or solar generation.

Will Watson ● 2069d

The idea is hydrogen is generated from electrolysis using surplus electricity from wind or solar generation.Hence the term Green Hydrogen! Still a long way to go though in terms of cost but look at how offshore wind has decreased in just over a decade, used to be £130 per megawatt hour now its something like £50 megwatt hour.

Matthew Swain ● 2069d

https://octopus.energy/outgoing/?

Philippa Bond ● 2069d

There are regulations on emissions from plant:https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/environment/pollution-and-air-quality/nrmm

Al Webber ● 2069d

Bruce, the VW is nice, was thinking of cheaper options an in-betweenThe bike and the car.  Cheap run around.

Janice Evans ● 2068d

It is horribly expensive isn't it, even with the subsidy. Have a look at Citroen and Peugeot 8 I think they have small cheaper models, but nothing electric is cheap in comparison with a traditional small car. Things will get better as more second-hand EVs come onto the market. Have a look at this site to get an idea of EV options.

Bruce Hammal ● 2068d

Sorry, forgot the link.https://www.electrifying.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7vbD6rqK7wIVFeDtCh0DMA1eEAAYAyAAEgLN2_D_BwE

Bruce Hammal ● 2068d