Forum Topic

Kew Gardens has management

A recent post on here extolled the virtues of Kew Gardens, and recommended becoming  a member ( a"Friend"); for £71 a year you and a companion get unlimited entry.But that really isn't the case. I am a member and decided to try to book online for a visit sometime this weekend. There was no availability at all.Just out of interest I then went on the booking site for non-members and found there was availability the whole weekend.Clearly Kew wants those visitors rather than members whose annual subscription it is already sitting on. So much for the periodic emails I get thanking me for my support etc.So something to think about before becoming a member. I won't be renewing my membership after this.

David Halliday ● 2077d74 Comments

Weekends always seem to be busy from my limited experience (I'm a member, but fortunate enough to be able to go on weekdays as my working pattern isn't exclusively mon-fri)I have some sympathy with Kew Gardens though ... they are being responsible and limiting the capacity and undoubtedly want to generate revenue in addition to that they already have 'in the bank' from members ... and ensuring that there is availability at the busiest times for non-members who might not be able to afford the price of a membership doesn't feel like too much of an issue.Have you tried booking at a weekend more than a couple of days away? Hopefully you should find availability then.

Andrew Jones ● 2077d

There's some availability for the following weekend and good availability for the weekend after. You'll have to take pot luck with the weather, though.

Susan Kelly ● 2077d

I'm guessing here but maybe, in order to boost much needed revenues, there is a fixed daily allocation for members and the balance for pay on the day guests.As a paying member I support that.

Philip Coe ● 2077d

PhilipWell as a paying member I don't agree. They are selling membership on false pretences. Before the current situation I could go whenever I liked.Btw. Typo in post heading. Should read BAD management

David Halliday ● 2077d

Not sure now, but as a Tate member, I could always just walk in however sold out they were.

Vivienne Cox ● 2077d

This has to be the most horrendous first world problems post yet.  Over 100,000 people have died and you’re complaining that you can’t have a walk in some lovely gardens.  If you can afford the membership you really have nothing to complain about.I despair.

Phil Spivey ● 2077d

Kew is a nationally important resource that will receive funding from numerous sources. I don't have access to their accounts, but I suspect membership is s small part of this and am sure the other funding sources would soon dry up if one group were favoured any more than they currently are.Maybe consider parking your sense of entitlement and be grateful that we have this world class facility on our doorstep and that they remain open despite the current situation.

Chris Jenkins ● 2077d

I imagine there’s an allocation of tickets for members and non-members for each slot and some members are block booking tickets, which means that those slots are full.

Valery Ryan ● 2077d

I understand your frustration, unlike others. I think the only way this is acceptable is if it’s spelt out clearly somewhere. Maybe it is

Maggie Dodge ● 2077d

Hi Maggie, I can understand David’s point of view but equally we are in the middle of a pandemic that few of us could have imagined a year ago and maybe, just maybe people need to change their normal expectations. If Kew Gardens can’t get a reasonable income then it’s work will suffer and ultimately the members will lose out as well. Sometimes we need to look at the wider picture (IMHO)

Andrew Jones ● 2077d

Only since the first lockdown ended have members had to book tickets for general entry. They are quite rightly restricting the numbers during the pandemic. Weekends are busy so you have to book early if you’re a member or not.  Once things become more settled, I imagine they will increase the daily limit or revert to the previous system. . I still think it is very good value.

Stewart Jones ● 2076d

Patience needed. Longer days will equal more slots.

David McLoughlin ● 2076d

I find the booking availability changes throughout the dayAnd for weekends they appear to release further tickets closer to time and even on the day so it is worth checking back.  People cancel and with additional ticket release we always manage to secure a weekend booking.

Alina Dansord ● 2076d

Agree with Chris, also probably not the best time to join during a pandemic.

Janice Evans ● 2076d

Lack of coach and car parking in Kew Rd must impact severely on the numbers visiting Kew Gardens.  I've been a member for years but now can't park close to Victoria Gate , too far to walk from Kew parking area, have not visited at all.

Jennifer Selig ● 2076d

There is car parking by the Brentford Gate, with disabled spaces slap bang outside and free wheelchairs or mobility scooters just inside the gate.

Ken Munn ● 2076d

i've never tried a mobility scooter, is there room on it for my portable electric oxygen trolley/battery?  How easy are they to drive?  Presume must be simple to operate.  Maybe once lockdown over and weather improves I'll give it a go!

Jennifer Selig ● 2076d

Note mobility scooters do need to be booked in advance.Yes, it's best to plan a couple of weeks ahead for members entry at weekends and holidays.I have booked Easter already. (Boris dependent!)

Nick Jenkins ● 2076d

A number of those who have commented have misinterpreted my point. I accept that Kew has to limit numbers, and that using time slots is the way to achieve that. And of course I accept that sometimes they won't be available.But having paid for my membership up front I think it unfair that I can't get a time slot when there is apparently loads of availability for non- members. I believe the slots should be available to all on a first come first served basis.I think that it a reasonable "sense of entitlement", and I will not, as Chris Jenkins rather insolently suggests, "park" it.

David Halliday ● 2076d

So are you saying if you had not join you would be able to get a slot no problem?

Janice Evans ● 2076d

I am saying that if I was prepared to pay the standard entry fee I could've visited this weekend, but I could not get in using my membership card, which I have already paid for.I thought my original post was clear on this.

David Halliday ● 2076d

David, to be fair, I think your first post was pretty clear. It seems the majority of us accept we don’t enjoy as easy access during this pandemic as we did in the past and we will in the future. I’ll renew my membership, like most other posters, but it’s your choice if you decide not to. I still consider it a bargain and I hope Kew Gardens are able to offer locals the same deal, given the losses they’ve suffered in the past twelve months.

Kerry Chandler ● 2076d

Well its nice to know how these memberships work (or not) don't blame you if you decide not to renew.

Janice Evans ● 2076d

It's really easy with a membership ticket when there isn't the restriction on numbers that there is now.As someone has mentioned the slots seem to vary during the day so probably worthwhile checking every so often.  How else could it work?  A pity perhaps in the circumstances that they don't have a queueing system for members wanting last minute "return" tickets.I've been a member for years and haven't been at all for the last couple.  It's a bit of a long walk for me now and I don't fancy going on a bus yet.  I wonder how may other people there are like me!

Philippa Bond ● 2076d

Hi DavidI have just been able to book for this Sunday as a member for 13.00.  The orange marked ‘ltd availabilty’ does not mean that there are no slots available, just chose one and go ahead, this worked for me.  If I get an email to cancel what looks to me like an accepted booking, I shall report back to correct myself.

Claudia Jachtmann ● 2076d

Had my sunday booking confirmed, looking forward to it.Hood luck with your member booking this week-end, David,Let us know how you get on.

Claudia Jachtmann ● 2076d

Thanks Claudia.And you have been able to book as a member have you I.e. no charge)?

David Halliday ● 2076d

Yes, as a member and no charge.

Claudia Jachtmann ● 2076d

Many thanks for alerting me Claudua.I've just managed to book for tomorrow afternoon. Obv they didn't sell as many standard tickets as they hoped so the members get a chance!Hope you enjoy your visit.

David Halliday ● 2076d

I just looked at the kew ticketing site, found there members entry tickets available again for today, and booked one for myself. Thanks to whoever it was who originally mentioned that tickets would sometimes become available again after previously having been sold out.

Andrew Jones ● 2076d

I can't help but take away a bit of "poor me" from this discussion.There is a disconnect between before, during and after COVID. My guess is members pay a reduced rate compared to individual visits. So when demand is increased and minimized by distancing simultaneously, takings can and should be maximized because they are still operating at a loss. And yet David seems to take issue with that. And he takes the position of supporting KG but only as and when it suits. Strikes me as selfish.Surely if surge pricing is becoming the norm courtesy of Uber, something similar could apply especially now when businesses continue to be challenged. To think it wouldn't at a beloved institution simply baffles me.

David Lesniak ● 2076d

David Halliday expalined:"A recent post on here extolled the virtues of Kew Gardens, and recommended becoming  a memberI am a member and decided to try to book online for a visit sometime this weekend. There was no availability at all.Just out of interest I then went on the booking site for non-members and found there was availability the whole weekend.Clearly Kew wants those visitors rather than members whose annual subscription it is already sitting on"--------------Except that the *only* reason there were  still slots available for non-members when you looked is *precisely because* restrictions are placed on reservations madeby members.Otherwise all the slots for popular times would already have been taken by more savvy members, at the expense of everyone *including other memebers, including yourself."Just think about it. If members were allowed automatic access to slots at the more popular times, within a matter of hours, there would be no slots left available at such times for anyone.michael adams

Michael Adams ● 2075d

Given the desperate need for funds, this is good management, not bad management.

Susan Kelly ● 2075d

Like many here, I have been a fully paid up member for donkey's years despite not visiting for  a long time - my fault not KG's.  I consider KGs a vital and essential asset to the Country and beyond for the wonderful work they do and the great pleasure both Kew and Wakefield give to millions who visit.  We are lucky to have all that beauty on our doorstep.

Jennifer Selig ● 2075d

I managed to get tickets this am Sunday for later today. There were none available yesterday so worth checking.

Alina Dansord ● 2075d

Slots currently available for members at noon and 3pm.

Susan Kelly ● 2074d

OK. Seems most of you who have commented and are Kew members are happy for Kew to take your money and then treat you as a second class customer. Fine.I'm not, and the purpose of my post, following the recent one extolling the virtues of becoming a member of Kew Gardens, was simply to point out that if you join at the moment your opportunities to visit will be restricted, not by the restriction of numbers at Kew, but by preference being given to one-off visitors.

David Halliday ● 2074d

David Halliday suggested:" OK. Seems most of you who have commented and are Kew members and are Kew members are happy for Kew to take your money and then treat you as a second class customer. Fine."I'm not a member but as I tried to explain to you above,  if Kew Members were given preferential treatment for bookings at all times, then this would impact on everyone *including other members". Such as yourself.In that case you'd doubtless be complaining "I've just become a member but I can't make a reservation as these are all fully booked weeks ahead by the existing members.In addition Kew needs to be available to casual visitors as a matter of duty. A tourist who has travelled fromfar away can't be expected to pay for an annual passfor a single visit but similiarly having travelled all that way can't reasonably be denied entrance either.Although presumably if you had your way you'd much rather visitors who may have travelled half way around the world to see Kew Gardens were turned away in preference to people such as yourself determined to squeeze every last ounce of value out of their memeberships.In addition Kew needs to attract casual visitors simply because casual visitors probably represent a far greater proportion of potential members than do visitors to their website To be quote honest your failure, to address these points, does make me rather doubt your sincerity.  michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 2074d

1  I have not suggested that members be given preferential treatment I have simply suggested they have the same opportunity to make a booking as non-members.2  I don't know on what you base your assumption that some members would book loads of slots to the detriment of others, including other members. I don't believe that would be the case at all.3  You say that I should bear in mind visitors "who have come halfway round the world to visit Kew Gardens" Erm, Michael, we are in the midst of a pandemic. There are no visitors from half way round the world, or even other parts of the UK, coming to see Kew Gardens.4  To be honest, although I have no reason to doubt your sincerity, your failure to understand that does make me rather doubt your grasp of reality.

David Halliday ● 2074d

David Halliday pointed out:" I have not suggested that members be given preferential treatment"See belowand furthermore went on to ask; "  I don't know on what you base your assumption that some members would book loads of slots to the detriment of others, including other members. I don't believe that would be the case at all. "I base my assumption on the fact that Kew Gardens have apparently found it necessary to introduce measures so as to prevent them from doing so.Why else would they do so ?Presumably this is the result of their experience during those first weeks during which they needed to restrict access for the first time.When regardless or whether members enjoy "preferential treatment" or not, their familiarity with the website as a result of emails etc meant that they were immediately in a position to monopolise the bookings.As to the pandemic, the restrictions on travelling and its impact on visitors. these have been changing throughout, as you will doubtless be aware.michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 2074d

The Gardens are so huge at 300 acres that it is surely unnecessary to discriminate potential entrants.Management should consider adopting an open-house policy, ensuring entrances are rigidly policed for social distancing, as happens at all the internal enclosures. Restaurants, Marrianne North's Gallery and Kew shop are all closed to the public; only the toilets remain open.With Spring looming more visitors than ever will be keen on being outdoors and their money would be most welcome at this World Heritage site.

Denis I. Fox ● 2074d

Michael AdamsYour arguments are becoming increasingly threadbare.The system currently being operated by Kew is to stop members booking at popular times, like weekends, to give Kew the chance to sell more tickets to non members.Which may be good commercial practice, but it is sharp practice. Members, like non members, may wish to visit at weekends or whenever  and given Kew is sitting on their subscriptions  why shouldn't they? If they can't, then is it a good idea to be a member?Re your point about rules changing over the course if the pandemic, I was referring to the situation now. I very much hope that we will soon reach a point when visitors from across the world and the UK can visit Kew. But by the time that happens I would expect limits on numbers to be lifted and a return to the situation where members are treated on an equal footing with non members

David Halliday ● 2074d

Is there a chance that if not a lot of people take up the tickets available to non members, then members are being kept away unnecessarily? Happy to be told I'm wrong.

Maggie Dodge ● 2074d

We came across two 1 penny tickets Kew had sent us many years ago which they honoured. Wild inflation seems to have occurred since those days which surely must affect the experience. Most enjoyable for 1 penny each.

Chris Vessey ● 2074d

David Halliday explained:" The system currently being operated by Kew is to stop members booking at popular times, like weekends, to give Kew the chance to sell more tickets to non members."Do you actually have any evidence to support that claim ?You failed in your own application, hence your post.Do you actually have any evidence of that applying in a large number of cases, to other members ?Because what *is* noticeable in this thread,  is that not one other member of Kew Gardens, has come out in your support.While you singularly fail to acknowledge any obligationwhich Kew Gardens may feel that they have to ocassional vistors as an internationally renowned Institution; instead accusing them of "sharp practice" on no real evidence, at all.Business Plan Proposal 6 Wait until a pandemic comes along where we can restrict visitor numbers and then we can really screw the members who've already paid by restricting admissions at popular times to day visitors only.michael adams

Michael Adams ● 2074d

I remember entrance being 10p but a penny! Prices started rising steeply after the great storm of 1987 which did a lot of damage.

Susan Kelly ● 2074d

Our 1 penny tickets were won in a raffle at our kids' school in mid 1980's.

Chris Vessey ● 2074d

" Our 1 penny tickets were won in a raffle at our kids' school in mid 1980's."quote:Charges at Kew were first introduced at Kew during World War One as a means of raising money.[4] That penny admission cost rose to 15p[5] by 1983 when the current status of the Gardens as a Non-Departmental Public Body was established by the National Heritage Act 1983 unquote:Hansardhttps://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmselect/cmsctech/866/86605.htmmichael adams

Michael Adams ● 2074d

Saying which, possibly the 1d tickets were old tickets which someone found lying around in a draw and donatedto the raffle.Although the normal tickets were issued by a turnstileon the day maybe it was possible to buy tickets to be given as presents - or as prizes.While according to "The London Spy" tickets were 4p. in 1972.michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 2074d

Although the normal tickets were issued by a turnstileon the day maybe it was possible to buy tickets to be given as presents - or as prizes.Or to save queuing, duh !michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 2074d

We simply rediscovered these tickets and my wife presented them at the gate and Kew Gardens later agreed to honour them in spite of their age. Jolly decent of them too ! This took place in 2018.

Chris Vessey ● 2074d

I have an idea that the 1d ticket price was laid down in some statute or by-law and so remained unaltered for many years until the gardens management managed to get it altered.

Richard Greenhough ● 2074d

Being of the senior persuasion I can remember getting into Kew Gardens for 1d.  That would have been late fifties or early sixties. I believe that with decimalisation the price was changed overnight from 3d down to 1p.  But in those days I think the government provided 90% of the Garden’s income.

Alastair Banton ● 2074d

Michael AdamsReplying to your points more ot less in turn;If you read the thread you will see that other members have had difficulty booking tickets. One of them tipped me off to try the night before or the early morning of the day I wanted to visit, and indeed that worked and I was able to go on Saturday.That I think is evidence that Kew holds tickets back. I was told none available for Saturday when I tried to book on Thursday, but they were available Friday night. The only reason I can think of is that Kew realised it wouldn't need all the tickets it had held back for non members so decided members could have them.Yes, you are quite right that some members on the thread have said they are quite happy with this situation. Fine. That is up to them. I have no problem with that.Post pandemic Business Plan Proposal 6.  Attempt to retain/win back disenchanted members.

David Halliday ● 2073d

It was even cheaper on tuesdays and thursdays at leastin 1934https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/system/files/styles/collection_item_component_600_px_wide/private/collection_item/2020-09/i0000r0x.jpg?itok=RMiAXe1IThe above is a link to a tram pole poster of 1934 in the LT Museum. The price of admission on tuesday and  thursday was either 1/2d or 1/4d. Which is which, is hard to tell. Both because of the lowresolution of the picture and the relatively small size of fractions in the Johnson LT font,michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 2073d

It was free in the early days but there were one or two days a week when it cost 6d. You might ask why anyone would pay 6d when they might go in another day for free but it was presumably less crowded on sixpenny days. Plus, if you wanted to impress a girl ...

Susan Kelly ● 2073d

Yes Michael – this was the “sitting duck” I mentioned yesterday..best filed under Si..S for sighand i for “it takes all sorts”..

Stuart Kerr ● 2073d

Susan Kelly explained:"It was free in the early days"Indeed. According to the Hansard link I posted chargeswere introduced during World War One "as a means of raising money."  Although not morale clearly.Maybe the poster says 6d my eyesight isn't such I'd want to argue the point,*I think* I can remember putting my penny into the turnstile and taking out my ticket. michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 2073d

Stuart Kerr explained:" Yes Michael – this was the “sitting duck” I mentioned yesterday.."You've lost me.michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 2073d

" Maybe the poster says 6d my eyesight isn't such I'd want to argue the point,"It was indeed 6d. As explained on an Edward Bawden poster of 1936, these were designated "Students Days"https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/system/files/styles/collection_item_component_600_px_wide/private/collection_item/2020-09/DR00011w7.jpg?itok=xp47l6hmmichael adams...

Michael Adams ● 2073d

You can find a reference to sixpenny days somewhere in Virginia Woolf but I can't remember where. Otherwise there is a fine display of old posters in the gallery at Cambridge Cottage but I suppose it's currently closed.

Susan Kelly ● 2073d

I seem to remember the price being 2p for child admission in the 70's. Does anyone know if I remember correctly?

Andrew Jones ● 2073d

Susan Kelly explained:" You can find a reference to sixpenny days somewhere in Virginia Woolf but I can't remember where."Luckily the first reference* is in Vol One of the DiariesFriday 23rd November 1917....I meant to go to Kew...To begin with I settled if it was a 6d day I wouldn't hesitate butdecided not to go in.Footnote 33 explains it was 6d on Tuesday and Friday(as is confirmed by other LT Kew posters ). When it changed to Tuesday and Thursday I'm not sure.Anyway well, remebered.*There are 9 further references to Kew Gardens inVol 1 alone. So this instance may not be unique.michael adams... 

Michael Adams ● 2073d

To add to the confusion I clearly remember how charming and anachronistic I found it to be asked to pay a penny for admission. I didn't come to live in London until 1972 so this outrageous price-hike must definitely have occured after then.

Bruce Hammal ● 2073d

Bruce Hammall explained:" I found it [charming] to be asked to pay a penny for admission. I didn't come to live in London until 1972"To add more confusion. Decimalisation took place in the UK on 15 Feb 1971. The 50th anniversary has just passed. Although fully adult at the time, I don't remeberand am to lazy to research, how long any transitionperiod lasted. Ip coins were never very popular as they were deemed too fiddly. And still are if you can find one.I have a book "The London Spy"* published in 1972 which I wrongly claimed previously gave admission as 4p. Looking again in fact it was 2p. A larger coin more suited to using in slot machines. This is assuming the turnstiles with coin slots were still in use, post 1972.Early on, children were admitted free. Once a charge was made pre 1972 presumably this was 1/2d. But this would require a separate childrens turnstile with slots - thus different length queues with the potential for children to get lost.Questions, questions ....michael adams* The Original "London Spy" was published by Ned Wardin the 18th century. Anthony Blond published the "New London Spy" compiled by Hunter Davis in 1966.He then published "The London Spy" in 1972 with contributions from a range of authors including John Betjeman....

Michael Adams ● 2073d

'Early on, children were admitted free.'And are now, or were last time I looked, though only allowed in accompanied by an adult.

Susan Kelly ● 2073d

Susan Kelly suggested:"And are now, [admitted free]or were last time I looked, though only allowed in accompanied by an adult."quote:Prices/Ticket typeIf you can, adding a voluntary donation to top up your ticket is an easy way to support Kew's vital science and conservation work.*Adult with donation*: £11.00without donation: £10.00Child (4-15 years): £4.50All children aged 16 and under must be accompanied by an adult. Young people (16 - 24) with donation*: £5.50without donation: £5.00:unquotehttps://www.kew.org/kew-gardens/visit-kew-gardens/ticketsThings are changing all the time however. I've seen references to the adult price being as high as £17.50  Although that may have included Wakehurst Place.michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 2073d

That is a very good point Michael - and one for which I have no explanation. I believe it is the signage stating "Admission 1d" or possibly "one penny" that I'm remembering rather than any mechanism for paying, like a coin-operated turnstile. Is it possible that after decimalisation paying visitors handed over a new-fangled 1p coin to somebody at the gate? Or even that like the penny arcades at seaside towns you could exchange new money for old to work the slot machines? I can't believe that Kew would have gone to the expense of updating turnstile mechanisms unless it was in the belief that admission would always remain at a notional amount.What strange and esoteric backwaters these discusssions lead us to!

Bruce Hammal ● 2072d

My recollection is that one paid for a pushchair rather than a child, but cannot now recall how I paid.

Vivienne Cox ● 2072d

It seems that the Kew Gardens admissions charge has long been a thorny subject. (Sorry!)

Bruce Hammal ● 2072d

'Things are changing all the time however. I'veseen references to the adult price being as highas £17.50  Although that may have includedWakehurst Place.'Prices were lowered when the Gardens reopened after lockdown #1 in June because indoor spaces are closed so we're getting less for our money. I'm sure they'll be back to normal in due course.Regarding children, they were definitely free for a long time. Another change.

Susan Kelly ● 2072d

Vivienne Cox recollected:" My recollection is that one paid for a pushchair rather than a child, but cannot now recall how I paid."Today children under 4 years of age are admitted free ashas possibly always been the case. The age at which children would require pushchairs.On one of the links which I can't now find there was an extra charge shown for cameras. Maybe at one time there was a whole list of charges for extra equipment, push chairs, cameras, picnic baskets, etc.michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 2072d

I believe that picnicking was strictly verboten for many years in the early days.

Susan Kelly ● 2072d

"On one of the links which I can't now find there was an extra charge shown for cameras"Actually it was for "photographic apparatus"" A charge of 3d. is made for the admission of photographic apparatus. The restrictions placed on photographers will be found in paragraphs 2, 6, 7,  and 8 of a printed leaflet, a copyof which has been sent to my hon. Friend."From Hansard again, this time Thursday 10 July 1919https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1919-07-10/debates/c682505e-a001-4f53-bed0-8c27105ad861/KewGardensWhich seems more aimed at professional photographersmaking use of tripods, large cameras and exotic colour processes. Although without access to the "printed leaflet" and paragraphs 2, 6, 7, and 8 in particular, its difficult to be certain at this late date.michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 2072d