Forum Topic

Covid, Sweden and the Myth of Herd Immunity.

I see that Michael Brown, our resident Holocaust/Twin Towers/Covid Denier, has taken to posting vague, unattributed charts, entirely out-of-context, to try to "prove" his claim that Sweden didn't have a lockdown, and so had far fewer deaths.This is a complete lie.1. While Sweden didn't impose a total national lockdown, it did take some measures, such as closing schools and universities and banning gatherings of more than 50 etc. Meanwhile, local authorities imposed further restrictions. More generally, Swedes themselves voluntarily self-isolated and practised enhanced hygiene measures as "good citizens" in a popular social democracy. Further, as a highly developed country, they readily embraced Work From Home, and as analysis of real-time credit card use and travel passes showed, greatly reduced their travel and shopping.2. Nonetheless, despite the above and the fact that they have a highly developed health service, however you measure it, they have some of the worst death rates in the developed world, CONSIDERABLY worse than their Nordic neighbours.For example, the current number of Covid Deaths per Million of Population is as follows:United Kingdom - 672SWEDEN - 577France - 515Denmark - 122Finland - 64Norway - 52https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/3. There are emerging any number of authoritative studies, incl from Sweden itself, which show that their approach has been pretty disastrous, eg:https://time.com/5899432/sweden-coronovirus-disaster/https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/how-finland-kept-covid-19-in-check-and-protected-its-economy-1.4364512https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/apr/28/facebook-posts/sweden-mostly-open-has-higher-covid-19-death-rate-/(Of course all the above pre-supposes that you you take 5 minutes to google the subject with an open mind - a process clearly alien to nutjob conspiracy theorists like Brown, who are entirely impervious to reason, facts, evidence or indeed basic honesty should such concepts challenge their pre-conceived obsessions.)3. "Herd Immunity" in the context of Covid is a myth, which has not happened, indeed cannot happen.For as Sarah Pitt, Fellow of the Institute of Bio-Medical Science at Brighton University recently pointed out in an episode of BBC World Service "Science in Action", in the entire history of Mankind, Herd Immunity has never developed for any virus in the absence of an effective vaccine:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3cszh10 (18 mins 30 secs in)And once more, even a perfunctory search will demonstrate that that is so, eg https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/herd-immunity-and-covid-19-experts-warn-against-letting-things-rip/ar-BB1aqR9rhttps://inews.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-herd-immunity-explained-less-immune-reinfection-rates-738484https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/10/natural-herd-immunity-mentality-cannot-stop-coronavirus-weak-vaccine-cvd/https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/18/covid-herd-immunity-funding-bad-science-anti-lockdown

Richard Cathcart ● 1274d155 Comments

All good points,Alan.I also think it is important to think of the feelings and anxieties of others,particularly in a shared space such as a shop or bus.Even if you are for whatever reason an anti-masker, many people have had their mental well being and stress stretched to near breaking point, so wear a mask at least when you are in that shared space for their sake.Think of other people,it's not about you and your 'principles'.

Keith Iddon ● 1153d

Whilst other countries are preparing to ease restrictions, Sweden is about to introduce greater measures, as follows."From Monday, all restaurants and cafés in Sweden will have to close at 8.30pm under rules that will shortly be put forward by the Public Health Agency.The Public Health Agency is also preparing rules that would further cut the maximum number of people allowed in stores and supermarkets. It is also urging everyone to do their shopping alone, not with family or friends.Sweden has now seen a rising number of cases for two weeks in a row, with an incidence rate of 445 new cases per 100,000 people over the past 14 days. Some regions, like Stockholm, have introduced regional measures, including urging people to wear face masks at all times on public transport and in close-contact situations.There have been 647,470 confirmed cases of the coronavirus in Sweden [population 10.4m] to date, and 12,793 people have died after testing positive."More here: https://www.thelocal.se/20210224/swedish-prime-minister-calls-press-conference-new-coronavirus-measures

Richard Cathcart ● 1153d

"Sweden's new pandemic law gives the government power to introduce extra measures to curb the spread of the coronavirus, and if you break these, you could face fines or other legal sanctions."More here: https://www.thelocal.se/20210119/what-can-you-be-fined-for-and-for-how-much-under-swedens-pandemic-law

Richard Cathcart ● 1190d

It’s not really confusing if you agree that this is a serious pandemic that is maiming and killing hundreds of thousands. And you want to minimise that by any means. And a simple means, even if not perfect, is to wear a mask. Which might, just might, stop you infecting someone else when you are unaware you could. Or you could bleat. And complain. And protest. And frankly be all so very self centred. (Not saying you specifically are.)Let’s just be decent. Wear a mask. Won’t hurt. Might help. Better than being a C U next mardi and not giving a f e ck.

Alan Clark ● 1193d

Apologies for the late reply, Andrew. I've only just seen your question - the thread had disappeared off the first page. I should really have said "honest opinion". It's the new statutory defence to defamation, which replaces the old common law defence of "fair comment".

Robert Fish ● 1193d

The problem with all these statistics is that there is no level playing field. The figures are either per 1 million of the population, or 100,000, or simply the countries with the highest mortality rate. The figures come from different sources. And to add further to the confusion, your https://reference comes up as: "The page you are looking for could not be found". I did however find a "Covid-19 deaths worldwide per million of the population as of January 15, 2021" list, which shows the UK, in 6th position, with a figure of 1,284.77 deaths per million population, but unlike your list, puts the top 7 as: Belgium, Slovenia, Italy, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Czechia, UK, and North Macedonia, with the UK the only country in both lists.  Confusing...

Brian Coyle ● 1194d

Fair cop, but me iPad jumps in and no likee Johns and wants John or John’s

Russell Pearson ● 1194d

RP > "John Hopkins is a fake Trump university?"It's Johns Hopkins.The unusual first name is a family name introduced into the Hopkins family when a Margaret Johns married Gerard Hopkins in 1700 and named their son, the university founder's grandfather, Johns Hopkins.

John Whitworth ● 1194d

John Hopkins is a fake Trump university?

Russell Pearson ● 1194d

James Roy with his fake news again. Trumpism at its best. 

Steve Taylor ● 1194d

SWEDEN:  100.38DENMARK:  28.65ESTONIA:  23.54FINLAND:  11.16NORWAY:    9.62ICELAND:    8.20UK:      129.59https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Richard Cathcart ● 1195d

Deaths rates per million1. San Marino2. Belgium3. Slovenia4, Bosnia5. Italy6. Czechia7. North Macedonia8. UKnever expect ST to get it right

James Roy ● 1195d

Hi AndrewI've forgotten what I once knew about libel law - but I guess "honest comment" is a legal term used by defence council - which speaks for itself..bit like plain speaking oop in the north..

Stuart Kerr ● 1195d

Robert, what constitutes 'honest comment'? I've never come across this term before.

Andrew Jones ● 1195d

Poor old Sweden. Predictably got it all wrong but as we have the second highest death rate in the world we have a lot to learn as our NHS collapses under the strain. What is it now 4.5 million on the waiting lists for general treatment as our Covid patients inundate the system. Yet people still don’t not stay home to try reduce the spread of Covid and take some pressure off the NHS.

Steve Taylor ● 1195d

Wow! The NWO really are "hitting them with the hard stuff" (as per Michael Brown on 12/01/21).

Richard Cathcart ● 1195d

...on a population of approx 10 million.

Ken Munn ● 1195d

RF: "Honest comment isn't defamatory."Correct. For Brown to show he has been defamed, he would have to come out and show that my deduction that he must be a Holocaust Denier is false.And considering he's had ample opportunity for just that formonths now, I'm hardly fearful that he's going to do so now. All the more so when he would himself have to defend the post where he accused ME of denying the Holocaust lol.But I have to say, there is one thing about this whole affair which baffles me. Here we have a poster, Brown, who claims all sorts of false, ludicrous, and hurtful comments on a whole range of topics.These comments fuel, and are fuelled by, insane conspiracies which have caused real hurt at every level, whether it be the poster on here who has lost an old friend "down the rabbit hole" (she literally cannot talk to her any more), or the families of people who have died from Covid, or in terrorist outrages, which Brown claims are fabrications.And taking this onto the wider stage, it is exactly his sort of QAnon lies which fuelled eg the disgraceful scenes we saw last week on Capitol Hill.Moreover, in spreading these lies, he both insults our intelligence and insults our character by calling us "sheeple" etc, with barely-concealed contempt.Yet when I try to point this out, suddenly I'm the bad guy, whilst some other posters on here rush to his defence, including with ignorant, uninformed claims of "defamation" etc.As someone once said: "You couldn't make it up!" - except that Brown does exactly that, whilst some of the very targets of his insane ramblings rush to defend him."Sheeple" indeed...

Richard Cathcart ● 1196d

No. Honest comment isn't defamatory.

Robert Fish ● 1196d

Just curious. I presume that writing that someone committed libel, could itself be libellous? Any thoughts anyone?

Andrew Jones ● 1196d

Like eg Twitter or Facebook, the operators of this site are merely providing a platform i.e. they cannot be held liable for publishing defamatory material.As for myself, well I'll take my chances - including by citing his post where HE accused ME of being a Holocaust Denier, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.In any case, I did not originally accuse him of anything. Rather I asked him his view on The Holocaust i.e. did he consider it real or a hoax.When he refused to answer, I wondered whether this wasn't because he thought it a hoax like he thinks just about everything else (Twin Towers, Westminster Bridge, 5G, Covid etc).Again he dodged the question, as he's done consistently, including on this thread. As you said yourself, any decent person would consider my inference a "disgusting slur" [sic], so why do YOU think he remains silent?But as I say, he only has to disabuse me of my deduction and I shall apologise and retract unreservedly.

Richard Cathcart ● 1196d

Sorry, Robert, some peope might think thaat my last post was aimed at you.

Roger Talbot ● 1196d

As I said, your public  accusation that Michael Brown is a holocaust denier could be considered libellous, and if it  doesn't bother you then it should certainly bother the website's publishers, since they would be judged as party to your libel.Wriggle on.

Roger Talbot ● 1196d

There's absolutely no reason for MB to reply to your offensive question. Silence is not proof of guilt, but probably in this case an expression of disgust at the impertinence of the question. It's ironic you consider MB unhinged and are outraged that he "had the cheek to accuse [you} of being a denier". Take a long hard look at yourself. You demean yourself with each succeeding expression of your animus towards him.

Robert Fish ● 1196d

RT: "There's one other thing, Mr Cathcart. You keep calling Michael Brown a holocaust denier - a disgusting  slur on anyone, and which the proprietors of this website may consider libellous. I've a feeling any judge would consider it to be so."RC: One of the hallmarks of convinced Conspiracists is that they believe everything to be a conspiracy. Some of their theories may be superficially plausible and their originators may appear appealing. However, even the most gullible or uninformed will know that the Holocaust was a fact, and that the other "theories" of those few deranged and/or fanatical individuals who deny it are not to be trusted.So I asked Brown whether he believed in The Holocaust, or whether he thought it a hoax. After all, as you say, no decent person would ever be thought to be a denier. Yet Brown has consistently refused to answer, to dispel any doubt. How can this be? The only logical deduction is that he is in fact a denier, but doesn't want to reveal it publicly. But as I have repeatedly said, he only has to post a simple "Yes, I accept the fact of The Holocaust" (six million Jews and others murdered by the Nazi's etc) and I will apologise and retract my accusation.I'm still waiting. Meanwhile, HE had the cheek on another thread to accuse ME of being a denier, when I have posted in clear and unambiguous language the exact opposite.(Btw, I suspect I have more knowledge of the law on defamation than you - I'll take my chance with any Judge of your choosing!)RT: "A  couple  of months ago MB  described on here his visit to Auschwwitz.  Do you not think that anyone who has been to the site of Auschwitz could possibly come away thinking that the holocaust never happened, and wanted his money back?"RC: Go back and read it again. His description was carefully measured and his conclusion was that he came with much to think about. However, he never actually told us what those thoughts amounted to.And it is well known that just as eg neo-Nazi's will often visit Auschwitz to gloat and take selfies etc, Holocaust Deniers will also visit in order to "confirm" their claims (eg that the gas chambers were really shower rooms etc)But as I say, if he does accept The Holocaust as fact, rather than a hoax, he only has to say so and I will apologise and retract unreservedly.

Richard Cathcart ● 1196d

RF: "You [RC] started this thread, and you kicked it off again four times, weeks after anyone had last posted on it"I started this thread AFTER Brown cited Sweden as "proof" of his bonkers Covid-denial. I separated this particular aspect out to stop it being lost in the fog of the myriad other posts on Covid generally.I revisited it on 13/11, 17/12 and 12/01 because NEW information came out from Sweden which sheds more light on the topic. This is no different from any other thread which is revived by a poster from time to time (eg Notable former residents of Chiswick).Nor is it costing you anything, I've not referred to you, so if you don't like it, you may always scroll on by.

Richard Cathcart ● 1196d

There's one other thing, Mr Cathcart. You keep calling Michael Brown a holocaust denier - a disgusting  slur on anyone, and which the proprietors of this website may consider libellous. I've a feeling any judge would consider it to be so.A  couple  of months ago MB  described on here his visit to Auschwwitz.  Do you not think that anyone who has been to the site of Auschwitz could possibly come away thinking that the holocaust never happened, and wanted his money back?  Even a thoroughgoing evil bastard like Himmmler puked  up when he paid a visit.

Roger Talbot ● 1196d

"It is obvious to most that Brown is an idiot who will not be deterred, never mind brought back to reality". Stupid generalisations serve no purpose. MB might be many things to many people, but certainly not an idiot.

Brian Coyle ● 1196d

Cathy has been spanked so hard on this thread, he keeps coming back when he thinks he's got something; but, of course, he never has..

Michael Brown ● 1196d

Good to hear your wise words on this, Robert.I've been saying exactly the same to Mr Cathcart on and on for ages, to no avail.  He's on a determined path to mental self-destruction.    Alas, he doesn't want to realise that a few of us can read straight through his words..  vis:- when he says he's finding Michael vaguely amusing, all we see a fuming obsessed  man, bristling with rage, with a trembling and sweaty upper lip, making an absolute fool of himself..One day it might sink in that the only forum poster bothering to flick through his laborious messages is Mr Brown himself – and Michael certainly doesn't give a toss for anything Mr Cathcart has to say..

Stuart Kerr ● 1197d

You started this thread, and you kicked it off again four times, weeks after anyone had last posted on it. You're doing your best to keep the controversy alive. Like a dog with a bone!

Robert Fish ● 1197d

It is obvious to most that Brown is an idiot who will not be deterred, never mind brought back to reality. But neither does he need me (or anyone else) to cause him to post his latest cock-eyed claim - he was at it long before I ever challenged him.Anyhow, I deliberately said "most", because every Conspiracist has to start somewhere, and even on this site there are one or two posters who appear to be being persuaded by some of his guff and may end up getting dragged down the rabbit hole.So that if he's not going to be banned (fair enough), that is why I think it important to challenge him.If nothing else, it is sticking up for the victims of Covid and terrorism etc, whose suffering he so callously adds to.Meanwhile, those people like you who find it tedious, may always click to the next thread which carries your fancy.

Richard Cathcart ● 1197d

Richard, you are becoming obsessed with Michael Brown. We're all familiar with his off-the-wall postings, and the more sensible among us simply ignore them. Your challenges simply help perpetuate the nonsense. I would say "don't feed the trolls", except I suspect Michael isn't a troll - he may genuinely believe his rubbish. Either way, please leave well alone - it's all very tedious.

Robert Fish ● 1197d

MB: "Yes, we know the NWO were p*ssed off with Sweden, so have sprinkled them with some of the stronger stuff.."First you claimed that there was no virus.Next you conceded there was, but that it was only a bit like flu.Then you claimed that the excess deaths figure would "prove" that people weren't dying from it.Yet the above "stronger stuff" quotation clearly implies that there IS something out there which is killing people. Which in turn directly contradicts your earlier claims.But hey, keep dreaming up this garbage - the more you produce, the more ridiculous you appear.It's now becoming quite comical.

Richard Cathcart ● 1197d

Yes, we know the NWO were p*ssed off with Sweden, so have sprinkled them with some of the stronger stuff..

Michael Brown ● 1197d

Sweden has now hit 500,000 coronavirus cases as hospitals struggle.The country has registered more than 17,000 new cases since Friday, and its hospitals are struggling to cope with a rampant second wave of the virus.More people are being treated for coronavirus at hospitals in Sweden now than at any time during the pandemic."It's quite obvious that the healthcare system is as strained now (as during the spring)," Chief Epidemiologist Anders Tegnell tells a news conference."We are near the limit for what the healthcare system can handle."Sweden, which has never imposed a full lockdown, has seen more than 500,000 cases and 9,667 deaths - many more than its Scandinavian neighbours.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-55629330

Richard Cathcart ● 1197d

There was always going to be a mutation for Xmas. I'm sure all on this thread saw that one coming..

Michael Brown ● 1221d

And while you're at it, send off for a copy of Lee Rigby's birth certificate. You'll be shocked again with what comes back..

Michael Brown ● 1221d

I've answered your question. There's no point keep detracting from your claims about Sweden because you've realised you haven't got any valid claims.

Michael Brown ● 1221d

Send a FOI request to Govt asking for proof that COVID-19 exists.You will be shocked at the answer.. 

bobby osborne ● 1221d

MB: "'covid' still doesn't formerly exist.""Formerly"?Does this mean you're going back to your (ahem) former position?Simple question: Do you believe that there is a Corona Virus called Covid-19 which is killing people, or do you consider it to be a hoax?As you claimed, er, formerly.

Richard Cathcart ● 1221d

Richard, thank you for continuing to show what a load of nonsense MB spouts. At least, he will refuse the vaccine which will benefit someone else.

Stewart Jones ● 1221d

Even more impressive results from the Swedes then, although some professors believe they do apply.

Michael Brown ● 1221d

A little learning is a dangerous thing. Koch's postulates are intended to apply to bacteria, not viruses.

Robert Fish ● 1221d

Kohc's postulates have not been met so 'covid' still doesn't formerly exist. This may help explain why there isn't a notable increased death rate in Sweden.

Michael Brown ● 1221d

MB: What's relevant is the fact that the policy [Sweden] adopted resulted in less deaths per capita and cost nothing close to £400,000,000,000 or affected the economy or the people much"I was going to point out that had Sweden adopted the same lockdown policies as their neighbours in Norway, Denmark and Finland, then they would have the same much lower death rates and a less damaged economy.But before we get to that, I still need you to answer this question. Why are you talking about "death rates" from a virus which you previously told us didn't even exist? (Or if it did, was nothing more than "a bit of flu")

Richard Cathcart ● 1221d

Oh no, there's another twat now!

Basil Finnis ● 1222d

Sweden has been given a different narrative as the they are further down the road to The Great Reset as a proportion of their population is already microchipped and digitalised,So they were rewarded with low mortality rates for a few months to set up a controlled debate but now the agenda is to discredit any lingering belief in natural herd immunity which undermines the vaccine rollout and the plan by 2030 sterilise and depopulate the planet.So the NWO is as predicted bringing them in from the cold as there is too much non-compliance among other European countries.

bobby osborne ● 1222d

As for the furloughing, all the British government is doing is handing out cash to keep employees quiet while the companies they work for are being destroyed. Cash now in return for no job later.

Michael Brown ● 1222d

It's not relevant whether Sweden adopted the 'right' policy. What's relevant is the fact that the policy they adopted resulted in less deaths per capita and cost nothing close to £400,000,000,000 or affected the economy or the people much. If they change policy, we can go on to judge the effects of that. Get real, Cathcart, you fool.

Michael Brown ● 1222d

MB: "Regardless of what Sweden does in the future..."So what you're saying is, that if no lockdown was the right policy in the past, we can now blithely disregard it if, in the light of experience, they are now moving towards more preventative, lockdown-style measures? I guess that may be your only way out, but don't think that the rest of us haven't spotted your contortions.MB: "[Sweden has] done immeasurably better than the UK to date by virtually doing nothing."They've not done "immeasurably" better than the UK, nor have they done "virtually nothing". In fact, considering their own particular circumstances, they've done relatively worse, as proven by the far superior results of their comparable Nordic neighbours over both UK and Sweden. In simple terms, had they followed the example of Finland and Norway etc, by having a proper lockdown, their death rate and economic recession would have been much lower.MB: "You are totally exposed for the fraudster that you are."I'm not the one who claimed that Covid didn't exist.Then claimed that it was no more virulent than flu.Then claimed that the UK's excess death rates would be no higher at the end of the outbreak.All of which have been demonstrated to be, well, just so much more brown stuff.

Richard Cathcart ● 1222d

Regardless of what Sweden does in the future, they've done immeasurably better than the UK to date by virtually doing nothing. You are totally exposed for the fraudster that you are.

Michael Brown ● 1222d

"Sweden's government is recommending wearing face masks on public transport during the rush hour, reversing its earlier Covid guidance.It will also cut from the current eight to four per table the number of people sitting together in restaurants, and ban alcohol sales after 20:00.PM Stefan Löfven unveiled the measures, which will take effect soon.[And] earlier this week, schools across the Stockholm region were asked to switch to distance learning for 13 to 15-year-olds for the first time as soon as possible. The measure was announced in response to rising Covid-19 cases.This came a week after a nationwide decision on 7 December to switch to remote learning for those over 16.And on Monday, new nationwide social-distancing recommendations for the Christmas period came into force, replacing similar region-specific guidelines." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55371102

Richard Cathcart ● 1222d

MB: "Yes, it's herd immunity, but that's Cathcart for you."Immunity to what?You originally claimed that Covid-19 didn't even exist, so just what is it we're becoming immune to? And if it doesn't exist, what's causing all the UK deaths which you've now taken to citing?

Richard Cathcart ● 1222d

So, did they plan Covid, these Covid planners? And I thought we were all enslaved anyway, and there was more money in the govt banks pre Covid to keep the New World Order happy, than there is now.

Vivienne Cox ● 1222d

JR: "Isn't that herd immunity?"You don't cite your source, but Spanish flu - a particularly virulent strain of Influnza - never actually died out. Rather it reappeared a number of times subsequently, in a mutated form, but with reduced mortality (eg "swine flu" in 2009/10).Eventually scientists have learned enough about it to be able to cope with further outbreaks, along with flu vaccinations and other treatments.And, of course, influenza continues to recur every year in one form or another.

Richard Cathcart ● 1222d

Clarky boy, your posts comprise of less and less substance, if that's possible. I'd go as far to say desperate posts..

Michael Brown ● 1222d

Mr B. Give up on this one. Cathcart has utterly trumped you. Best advice is duck out and stay quiet. Put the spade down. Your claims are fiction. Or keep arguing so that you can be shown to be very silly.

Alan Clark ● 1222d

Yes, it's herd immunity, but that's Cathcart for you.Credit where it’s due for the covid planners; they’ve got us all talking about the stats for this country and that country, and appropriateness of this tier and that tier etc. rather than what’s actually happening in the bigger picture, which is to destroy economies, put people out of work and enslave them under a new draconian economic and social system – a long planned New World Order.

Michael Brown ● 1222d

"For as Sarah Pitt, Fellow of the Institute of Bio-Medical Science at Brighton University recently pointed out in an episode of BBC World Service "Science in Action", in the entire history of Mankind, Herd Immunity has never developed for any virus in the absence of an effective vaccine:""Spanish Flu Pandemic EndsBy the summer of 1919, the flu pandemic came to an end, as those that were infected either died or developed immunity."Isn't that herd immunity?

James Roy ● 1222d

The UK figures would need to be 1000 times better than Sweden's to justify the destruction, but they're worse!!

Michael Brown ● 1222d

MB: "In any case, Sweden's figures are far superior to those of the UK, and achieved without destroying the country and its population.""Far superior"?Sweden's Death Rate is 789 per million of population, whereas the UK's is 978. Which considering the huge demographic differences between the two can easily be explained.Valid comparitors are Sweden's Nordic neighbours:Denmark - 174 per millionFinland - 88 Iceland - 82Norway - 74https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries(They also suffered less economic damage, too, btw)But even if you ignore those comparisons, as you surely will, how do you account for countries which DID impose a lockdown having much lower death rates per million of population, eg:Vietnam - 14S.Korea - 13New Zealand - 5Singapore - 3China (ahem) - 2 But even that is missing something.When you first started spouting on this topic, you denied that Covid even existed, it was all a hoax, with made-up data.Then you claimed that it was nothing more than a bit of flu.Next, you retreated to claiming that the excess mortality rates for the UK would prove that this virus wasn't really causing people to die.Now, 6 months later, when the above claims have been proven to be bunkum, you now rely upon the very figures that you previously derided to try to back your case!(Not that your distortions and misrepresentations of the figures stand even the most cursory of inspection).So you're not just a joke, but you're your own joke!

Richard Cathcart ● 1222d

MB > "... this site would appear to be more up to date..."Of course it is, that was the point.I offered you a snapshot of the Worldometer site from *11:00am this morning* showing Sweden's Total Deaths as 7893. They are now showing 7993 - an increase of 100 deaths *reported* today.

John Whitworth ● 1222d

https://web.archive.org/web/20201218110033/https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ shows 1,670,820 CV deaths worldwide.https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ (the site I've been looking at)shows 1,672,068 CV deaths worldwide; so this site would appear to be more up to date, unless people are coming back from the dead.

Michael Brown ● 1222d

In any case, Sweden's figures are far superior to those of the UK, and achieved without destroying the country and its population. A no-brainer, which should help you, RC.

Michael Brown ● 1223d

"The [Swedish] Public Health Agency has long acknowledged that there is a delay in the figures it reports, with deaths often added to previous days over the following weeks. This is partly due to delays in how Sweden's regions report deaths, and partly due to cross-referencing with other national registers to ensure that the number is as accurate as possible."https://www.thelocal.se/20201203/fact-check-what-was-swedens-covid-19-death-rate-in-mid-november

Richard Cathcart ● 1223d

MB > "Worldometer Stats:"Worldometer retrospectively 'corrects' the figures for Sweden to reflect date of death rather than date of reporting. Sweden reported 100 deaths in its latest update, but they were spread over multiple dates of death.Here's a snapshot of the Worldometer website from 11:00am today:https://web.archive.org/web/20201218110033/https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/Scroll down to Sweden - Total Deaths: 7893

John Whitworth ● 1223d

Worldometer Stats: Total deaths from CV in Sweden are shown as being 7,971 for 2 days ago and 7,973 for yesterday.Swedish CV deaths for yesterday are shown as being 2.7,973 - 7,971 = 2

Michael Brown ● 1223d

MB > "2 CV deaths reported for Sweden yesterday on Worldometer site."The total number of deaths reported by Sweden changed from 7893 to 7993 - an increase of 100.

John Whitworth ● 1223d

2 CV deaths reported for Sweden yesterday on Worldometer site.

Michael Brown ● 1223d

MB: "Let's ignore all the other countries around the world and all the failed lockdown policies."You mean like eg New Zealand, who closed their borders and imposed a very strict lockdown at the very first signs of the disease?For the record, their tally is currently 2,110 cases and 25 deaths:https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/new-zealand/MB: "You're fooling no-one, Cathcart. Your scorn, alone, shown towards a country that has done so well without destroying the economy and people's lives gives you away"My "scorn" is not for Sweden, or their adoption of policies which even their King and Prime Minister are now admitting didn't work.Rather it is for idiots like you who wilfully disregard or deny the facts since they don't suit your bonkers conspiracy theories.And speaking of destroyed economies and facts, I would refer you back to Andrzej Kowalski's post of 27 October at the top of this thread, where he pointed out:AK: "It's also worth noting that Sweden's GDP fell by 8.6% in Q2 compared to Q1 - its largest quarterly fall since records began in 1981.  While better than the EU average (-11.4%) and significantly better than the UK (-20.4%), this is larger than any of its Nordic neighbours (Finland -3.2%, Denmark -7.4%, Norway 7.1% March to May) which are probably the best comparators.  So Sweden's approach doesn't seem to have worked well on either the infection front or the economic front."

Richard Cathcart ● 1223d

...plus you don"t have James Tranny-Jones to back you up anymore; he's been thrown off for being such an idiot. You're on par with the twat, so it may only be a matter of time..

Michael Brown ● 1223d

Let's ignore all the other countries around the world and all the failed lockdown policies.You're fooling no-one, Cathcart. Your scorn, alone, shown towards a country that has done so well without destroying the economy and people's lives gives you away.

Michael Brown ● 1223d

Proud of your little graph, eh?Well suck on this. Sweden - population 10.1m - has had 357k Covid cases, with 7,693 deaths:https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/Whereas neighbouring Finland - population 5.5m - has had 32k Covid cases and 484 deaths:https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/finland/That is, twice the population but more than 10 x times the number of cases and nearly 16 x times the number of deaths. And the figures for Sweden's other northern neighbours aren't that much different either.

Richard Cathcart ● 1223d

Sorry, boys..

Michael Brown ● 1223d

So it appears that a policy of national smugness won't save you from the coronavirus.

Colin Jordan ● 1223d

Sweden's King Carl XVI Gustaf has described 2020 as a "terrible" year and says the national coronavirus strategy has failed."I think we have failed. We have a large number who have died and that is terrible," the king says in [a TV] programme.Sweden is also said to have one of the highest per capita Covid-19 death rates in the world, and has had more deaths than the rest of the Nordic countries combined. This has led to criticism from the country's neighbours, Norway, Denmark and Finland, that its less strict approach is putting their own measures at risk.On Tuesday, Prime Minister Stefan Lofven also said he felt many experts had underestimated the second wave."I think most in the profession did not see such a wave incoming. There was instead talk of different clusters," he said in an interview with daily Aftonbladet.More here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55347021

Richard Cathcart ● 1223d

“I have got a series of punts on Trump because I am a gambler and the odds were so enticing when the media incorrectly called the election before all votes were counted”    There is a reason why the media called it, he lost, end of. Now you can still get enticing odds of 2000-1 Elvis is alive, great value I would agree, but he is dead.       You must be the bookies best friend chucking money on Trump. By the way, my offer still stands, if you are so sure, why not take me on. Come on Bobby, let’s have you. See, I think you all talk like others on here.

James Smith-Jones ● 1244d

Oh, just stop it.

Claire Moran ● 1244d

My offer still stands Bobby and for you as well Stupid Fkerr. Gambling for mugs like you bunch of losers.

James Smith-Jones ● 1244d

Dickie ?Andy?Double barrelled James?Anyone ?Either put up or shut up .. Come on let’s be having you !

bobby osborne ● 1244d

Blimey ! I am literally offering you free money..Biden has won hasn’t he ?

bobby osborne ● 1244d

You guys aren’t the sharpest pencils in the box are you.I have got a series of punts on Trump because I am a gambler and the odds were so enticing when the media incorrectly called the election before all votes were counted.The gullible sheep all believed the fake news which amused me.If Trump wins I will be very rich but I think the system is stacked against him. I suspect you are bottling the bet because 500-1 exposes your lack of true confidence.It’s a ‘sure thing’ in your pea brains!So how about I reduce the odds to 100-1?Have you got the courage of your convictions?

bobby osborne ● 1244d

Thanks Richard...Good try and well worth the effort But watch out - this odious James virus has mutated into the sockpuppet of a forum battleaxe/dominatrix..Meanwhile Michael & Bob ... don't worry about this twerp's gambling debts.  His mum will pay...

Stuart Kerr ● 1244d

talking of dumbasses!

James Smith-Jones ● 1245d

see Andrew, don't think you will get a bite from Bobby, think you been very fair. Unfortunately our resident trolls will run a mile from our proposals. Let them carry on making complete tools of themselves and sure a few more of the usual wristers will be on later attacking as they normally do.

James Smith-Jones ● 1245d

Bobby,There is no doubt in my mind that Trump is not going to be the sitting US president on 21st January 2021.He and his legal teams have been rebuffed on practically every legal avenue they have tried to go down. If, and it's a very big if, anything even reaches the Supreme Court, I'd hope that they would judge correctly even though it has been packed with republican leaning appointees over recent years.Trump doesn't have the support of many prominent republicans any more who are breaking ranks to urge him to accept what they all know - he lost the election.I won't take your bet - there's not going to be much benefit to the NHS but I'll offer you this ... you give an NHS charity £250 now, I'll give you a pound to stake with whatever bookmaker is eager to take money off you, and then when Trump 'wins' and is still president on Jan 21st, I'll give £250 to an NHS charity. You'll be £250 up, I'll be £250 down, the NHS charity will be £500 better off. That's both of us putting our money where our mouths are.Alternatively, come back on Jan 21st and tell us how much money you won on your bet that Trump won the election (and how consequently there isn't a Democrat as US President).

Andrew Jones ● 1245d

That would almost be worth hoping that DumbAss Donald finds some way to steal the election. But when you set the future of the world against the good of CW4, I'm afraid the world has to come first. So the J20 virus will continue to proliferate here :-(

Richard Greenhough ● 1245d

TJ, I'd say take the bet, but you didn't honour your forum resignation some months back, so you probably wouldn't pay out anyway.

Michael Brown ● 1245d

Tell you what Bobby, forget the 500-1 how about this for a bet. If, sorry, when Biden is sworn in in January 2021, you come on here and write your last post admitting you have made a complete tw@t of yourself, denouncing Brown3d and his crazy theories and you retire into  oblivion never to be seen again. If Trump is sworn in, I will do the reverse and hang my head in shame for everything I have said and retire from this forum never to be seen. So, Jan 20th is the date. Do we have a bet, come on, how about it, you, me, Brown3rd and let’s get Stupid Fkerr as well. Don’t let me down boys.

James Smith-Jones ● 1245d

So Trump lost and itue election is over. No doubt in your mind ? How about giving me 500-1 odds ?I back Trump to win and you back Biden..All winnings to go to the NHS.If you are so sure put your money where your mouth is.

bobby osborne ● 1245d

Tried to read the whole posting but started to lose the will to live.Who is worse, MB or BO (or for that matter someone you feel is further beyond the pale, God forbid!?)

Jeffrey Cope ● 1245d

The 2024 election perhaps. He’s lost the 2020 election and no amount of conspiracy theory shenanigans is going to change that outcome.When is Matt Hancock going to get arrested by the way?

Andrew Jones ● 1245d

That’s bewildered the compliant sheep lol ..Its no good searching on Google and Wikipedia or swallowing the propaganda that the pathetic BBC churns out to find the reasons all your freedoms and your human soul have been stolen by the Deep State ..Take your masks off before its too late as the truth will come out and you by your compliance will have acquiesced with this tyranny..

bobby osborne ● 1245d

Imagine the trouble Boris would be in if he had any involvement in getting rid of Donald to allow Beijing Biden to be president and the server that was recovered from Frankfurt shows he had been naughty.If I were a conspiracy theorist i would link this up to COVID-19 being used to roll out The Great Reset. That would mean all the people wearing face nappies are looking stupid for nothing and those brilliant SAGE scientists are not 100% honest.I have even heard the crazy idea that 4 of the 5 eyes (Canada NZ Australia U.K.) have already had a communist takeover with puppets installed. What a load of nonsense you couldn’t make it up!

bobby osborne ● 1245d

Sweden, terrible Sweden..

Michael Brown ● 1245d

Trump won the election by a landslide, but creepy joe and the gang were at the controls of the Dominion Smartmatic vote rigging software, switching Trump's votes into creepy joe's pot..

Michael Brown ● 1245d

I’ve just placed a huge bet on Trump winning the election and would urge everybody else to do the same..

bobby osborne ● 1245d

Following BO's latest "contribution" to the debate, I am reminded of one of the great showbiz heckles of all time.It dates back to the days of Variety and concerns the Glasgow Empire. The Empire had notoriously critical audiences: as Eric Morecambe once noted "If they liked you, they let you live!" And they were especially hard on English acts.Anyhow, brothers Mike & Bernie Winters were booked to play the Empire for the first time. For those who don't remember that far back, they were a sort of "British Dean Martin & Jerry Lewis", where Mike was the serious and handsome musical one, whereas Bernie was the shambling, goofy funny one.Anyways, the act started as usual with Mike out on his own, front of stage, playing the clarinet. To absolute silence.He began to get nervous at this total lack of reaction, the silence becoming ever more overbearing as the minutes dragged on.At long last Bernie's (musical) cue came, and the big man poked his head round the side of the curtain, displaying his trademark toothy grin.At which point, a lone Glaswegian voice called out: "F**k me, there's two of them!"

Richard Cathcart ● 1245d

like i said, you over qualified for the idiot roll but do carry on spending more time with your kayak on the river as the forum enjoying Brown3rd free days!

James Smith-Jones ● 1245d

I can also do a back-deck roll, and a hand roll (no paddle) in a rounded kayak, like a polo kayak, but not great at either. I was hoping to improve through practise this year but the pool sessions were shut down due to covid fraud..

Michael Brown ● 1245d

A ham roll or a sausage roll?  Or an eskimo roll? I can do an eskimo roll - L/H and R/H

Michael Brown ● 1245d

thank you for your application for the village idiot but i am afraid you are over qualified for the roll!

James Smith-Jones ● 1245d

Sweden: The country has, to date, come through the covid fraud without shutting down businesses en masse and without locking people up thus not inflicting all the damage on the economy and population that comes with such measures; and the Swedes also boast lower covid death rates than most European countries who have destroyed their economies and populations’ futures; yet we read of all this scorn towards Sweden. It’s as though the shills want to be exposed..

Michael Brown ● 1245d

the mind boggles!

James Smith-Jones ● 1246d

All this regurgitating of flawed data and propaganda is just a distraction based on the false premise that Covid 19 exists.Coronavirus’ have been around for many years and our bodies contain trillions of viruses and bacteria.FOI requests to the Govt have established  that there is no scientific proof that Covid 19 exists.And that is why we have an arrest warrant for Matt Hancock going through the legal system as we speak.The truth will soon reveal itself.

bobby osborne ● 1246d

He must be weeping into his QAnon hanky now his denier in chief Trump is packing his bags.

Basil Finnis ● 1246d

I wouldn’t worry about Mr Brown’s flawed thinking and hapless posts. He is easily laughed off. And this time what made me chortle was his use of the UK Covid death numbers cited in defence of his “isn’t Sweden amazing “ theory. A few months ago he was decrying the UK Covid death tally as pure fiction. Now they are essential to another of his baseless notions. So I guess the UK numbers are now fact. (As they always were.) There is nothing like consistency to create credibility ... and that is nothing like consistency.

Alan Clark ● 1246d

Richard, look at what you have done, surprise surprise, did not take long for “it” to raise its ugly head.The forum has been so enjoyable of late without our resident covid deniers. I heard Brown3rd decided to spend more time on the Thames on a photography improvement course. Our resident journo kack however continues to make a nuisance of himself but think his days are numbered . Looking forward to a better year on the forum along with the HR cycle lanes debacle can return to normality eh, fingers crossed.

James Smith-Jones ● 1246d

15 covid related deaths reported in Sweden yesterday compared to 608 in UK. Pressure building from the NWO.

Michael Brown ● 1246d

Sweden, infamous for not imposing a lockdown during the first wave of the coronavirus pandemic, appears to be changing tack and implementing stricter measures as a second wave of infections takes hold and hospitalizations rise.On Monday [16 Nov], it announced that public gatherings of more than eight people were no longer allowed, marking a shift in tone for the Scandinavian country that has so far largely relied on voluntary measures and guidance during the pandemic.Prime Minister Stefan Lofven announced the new limit on gatherings, lowered from a previous limit of 50 people (or 300 people for some cultural or sporting events), signaling a more aggressive approach to containing the spread of infections.“This is the new norm for the entire society,” Lofven told a news conference, Reuters reported. “Don’t go to gyms, don’t go to libraries, don’t host dinners. Cancel.”The ban comes in on Nov. 24 and is due to last four weeks. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/17/sweden-toughens-up-coronavirus-rules-as-infections-and-deaths-rise.html

Richard Cathcart ● 1246d

Another 10 dead in Sweden, today..

Michael Brown ● 1257d

Sweden's top state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell told citizens to prepare for the possibility of restricted travel between different areas during the Christmas period so that regional healthcare services could avoid becoming overwhelmed.A provisional decision would likely be made in a week or two, he said, adding that Swedes needed to be prepared that things could still change "right before Christmas".Sweden's top state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell told citizens to prepare for the possibility of restricted travel between different areas during the Christmas period so that regional healthcare services could avoid becoming overwhelmed.On Thursday, authorities announced 40 new deaths, the country's highest daily toll for five months.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54926301Meanwhile, this 30 minute BBC radio programme on Sweden and Coronavirus from end-September demonstrates pretty conclusively that it is not valid to compare Sweden with the UK or other more southerly countries, but when compared with its Nordic neighbours who did impose a lockdown, it has fared notably worse eg 10 x times the number of deaths of Finland.While Markus Buggert of Sweden's Karolinska Institute agrees that there is no evidence to suggest that Sweden - or any other country - can eventually develop "Herd Immunity" in the population.https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000mqpv

Richard Cathcart ● 1258d

think Dick is also showing symptoms of Coiled Brain, very repetitive.

James Smith-Jones ● 1266d

thought you had been cured Dick!

James Smith-Jones ● 1266d

It's back from its grubby toilet again to re-infect CW4. Like the covid it does not want to go away; think another forum lock down is needed to rid us of these vile creatures.

Richard Greenhough ● 1267d

i think many have tried to explain this to Brain but me thinks his Coil is stuck again. No matter what you say he is like a broken record. Just as we were enjoying a Brown3rd free forum last couple of days and like the covid it does not want to go away, think another forum lock down needed to rid these vile creatures!

James Smith-Jones ● 1267d

I suspect that there may be a little confusion over cause versus mechanism of death. Here, we will see Covid as the cause of death even though the mechanism was something different (e.g. heart failure, etc.). There are some countries, Belgian I think is one, where they are recording Covid deaths as being anyone who has ever tested positive regardless of the death certificate cause or mechanism of death. Most countries need to be able to cite Covid as 'probable' or 'presumed' cause. That is, where the cause (Covid) leads to the mechanism or where Covid leads to the final cause (maybe recurring cancer or pneumonia or other) which then leads to the mechanism.I'm sure others will correct me if this is very wrong.

Alan Clark ● 1267d

You mean you have no idea at all?

Brian Coyle ● 1267d

The clue is in the words.

Steve Taylor ● 1267d

What exactly do you mean and understand by, 'Covid deaths'?

Brian Coyle ● 1267d

We have a very serious situation," Prime Minister Stefan Löfven warned, saying the virus was "going in the wrong direction.Sweden has reported 31 Covid deaths since Friday, taking the death toll to 5,969 - far higher than its neighbours.Unlike them, Sweden has never imposed a nationwide lockdown.”

Steve Taylor ● 1267d

RC, you fool - it was you that brought both me and the twin towers into the covid/Sweden equation, in your opening post. The truth is getting to you, again - have a lie down.

Michael Brown ● 1273d

Re. Michael Brown:Nobody cares any more about your nutjob Twin Towers conspiracy.Nor are we fooled by your transparent effort to use it to deflect from being shown up over Sweden and Covid-19 etc.And on that topic, a crank like you ranting away on his own shouldn't make any difference.Rather my posts are for the benefit of the one or two other credulous individuals on this forum who appear tempted to stick their head down the rabbit hole.They may just be saveable, even if you aren't.

Richard Cathcart ● 1273d

Michael Brown ● 1273d

As just noted, no-one is sure exactly what The Black Death was.But in any case, what we commonly call The Black Death is thought to have been the second outbreak of this "plague", there being numerous other outbreaks in the succeeding 450-odd years, albeit not nearly so fatal. (Malta and Romania may have got it as late as 1813.)So that whatever it was, the great outbreak of 1347 probably didn't confer future herd immunity. In which case, it may be that The Black Death may just have been a particularly virulent strain, just like the 1917-19 Spanish Flu was a particularly virulent strain of influenza.So that as regards the present pandemic, if it cannot be eliminated like eg SARS-1, but instead replicates via new strains, we cannot be certain whether the death rate from this Covid-19 strain is typical for this type of virus, or atypically high or low. We must all sincerely hope it is not the latter.

Richard Cathcart ● 1273d

Thank you for that considered response.Some observations.1. Of course there are difficulties in comparing statistics from different countries etc, but most countries at least have reliable death rate records.And when compared with ALL of Sweden's Northern neighbours (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland and the 3 Baltic States), Sweden's Death Rate per 100,000 is greater than all the others by a factor of between 5 x times and 25 x times. Within those figures, there may indeed be some statistical anomalies, but the broad, overall picture seems clear.https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality;2. I cited UK (a bit higher) and France (a bit lower) merely for illustrative purposes. But in response to Brown's original claim that "many" European countries have much higher death rates than Sweden, that Johns Hopkins study shows that Sweden is 6th out of 48 European countries (excl. micro-states like San Marino), being not that far behind numbers 2 to 5 (Belgium being way out in front). And as I said above, it is WAY worse than ALL its northern neighbours; 3. Finland may indeed have been exceptionally well prepared - good for them! - but that doesn't explain all of Sweden's other northern neighbours;4. Your Encyclopedia Britannica extract refers to "diseases" generally, whereas Ms. Pitt specifically referred to viruses. Moreover, I drew a different conclusion from yours re her comments on epidemial equilibrium.And in any case, recent evidence of people being infected a second time with Covid-19 suggests that the immunity gained from a first infection may only last a few months in some cases. If so, this could make Herd Immunity for Covid-19 much harder to achieve than those diseases where immunity last for many years, or even for life.

Richard Cathcart ● 1273d

There is also a prominent school of thought that The Black Death pandemic was actually ebola.

Keith Iddon ● 1273d

"Mankind did develop herd immunity to the Black Death" - I hesitate to pontificate on what remains a highly controversial historical topic but .... Is it not possible that those who survived to have children had a genetic predisposition to either be immune to the plague or be only mildly affected by it. Others have also pointed out that the influenza virus mutates over time and a benign strain can become virulent and vurulent strain can become benign. Could the COVID-19 virus not also follow this pattern?

Cllr Sam Hearn ● 1273d

Sarah Pitt should talk to the scientists in South Africahttps://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-south-africas-covid-lockdown-may-have-created-herd-immunity-12116494

Steve Taylor ● 1273d

"Sarah Pitt, Fellow of the Institute of Bio-Medical Science at Brighton University recently pointed out in an episode of BBC World Service "Science in Action", in the entire history of Mankind, Herd Immunity has never developed for any virus in the absence of an effective vaccine"Strictly speaking that in not entirely accurate.  Mankind did develop herd immunity to the Black Death, but it only killed 30-45% of the population to do so

Justin Stephenson ● 1274d

Stick to hanging around grubby toilets, Jimmy Jimmy. You might learn how to spell "video" from the graffiti there, while you are collecting more mucky nicknames.

Richard Greenhough ● 1274d

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw_K5u1LtFo thought you might enjoy this Dick!

James Smith-Jones ● 1274d

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-south-africas-covid-lockdown-may-have-created-herd-immunity-12116494

Steve Taylor ● 1274d

....

Richard Greenhough ● 1274d

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Cabinet+Making+Instructions&&view=detail&mid=8BAEB6AF921EEC7B94978BAEB6AF921EEC7B9497&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DCabinet%2BMaking%2BInstructions%26FORM%3DVDMHRS

James Smith-Jones ● 1274d

Seven-day moving average of daily 'covid' deaths in Sweden:Sept 02:    2Sept 17:    2Sept 27:    2Oct  14:    2Oct  25:    2

Michael Brown ● 1274d

Richard,Thank you for selecting the references supplied out of the vast number that can be used to support either side of this discussion.I take the view that country comparisons are inherently difficult for various reasons:differences in counting methods and statistical analysisdemographic differences (age structure, ethnicity etc)policy differences (e.g. lockdown levels and timing)There are statistical techniques to make these comparisons, but as we are still in the pandemic it is surely too soon to draw any firm conclusions.  For example we have estimates of future QALYs lost due to health service restrictions but not actual data.  Ditto for medium to long term economic effects.But there are some factors which stand out.  For example the policy of discharging vulnerable people back to care homes to free up beds in hospitals for the "surge" which never came.  In the UK this may have resulted in around 20k excess deaths added to the Covid count (investigation in this week's Sunday Times).  The same policy was enacted in Sweden similarly inflating their figures.You make comparisons with Sweden's Nordic neighbours followed by a list of countries including UK and France - are we now Nordic? And you left out Belgium whose performance is not too good.  But this is cherry picking. There are countries such as Peru and Argentina that have done badly with severe lockdowns and others with a lighter touch that have done better. I've had a look at some of the articles you reference. The Irish Time piece on Finland is interesting:"Experts said Finland’s approach – and the similar one of Denmark and Norway – of shutting down rapidly but not totally to get the pandemic under control, and then reopening after a couple of months has been one of the most successful in Europe in this early stage of coronavirus."..."One big distinction between Finland and all other European countries is its focus on preparedness and how to act in national emergencies, born out of its collective experience during the Winter War in 1939-40 against the Soviet Union. Its law on preparedness explicitly mentions pandemics and was triggered for the first time since the second World War while its emergency stockpiles of medical and protective equipment were the envy of the continent amid shortages elsewhere.Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s state epidemiologist who reviewed the preparedness in Finland several years ago, said: “Their level of preparedness is just way beyond anything we would even dream about in Sweden. But, of course, if you have a neighbour like Russia and you’ve fought wars with them forever ...”"So Finland was well prepared and was able to react quickly and reopen quickly.  I recall noting in March that there seemed to be inadequate local organisation for emergencies (in the Cold War we used to have Civil Defence capability).  It seemed to take about 2 weeks to get going in which time spontaneous local voluntary initiatives had sprung up around the country.  That is perhaps something we could learn from Finland without waiting for detailed analysis.On the subject of herd immunity, the author of this Encyclopedia Britannica article seems to think it is a thing:"Herd immunity, also called community immunity, state in which a large proportion of a population is able to repel an infectious disease, thereby limiting the extent to which the disease can spread from person to person. Herd immunity can be conferred through natural immunity, previous exposure to the disease, or vaccination. An entire population does not need to be immune to attain herd immunity. Rather, herd immunity can occur when the population density of persons who are susceptible to infection is sufficiently low so as to minimize the likelihood of an infected individual coming in contact with a susceptible individual. Herd immunity can prevent sustained disease spread in populations, thereby protecting susceptible individuals from infection. It is applicable, however, only to infectious diseases that can be spread by human contact."I thought Sarah Pitt in the interview was nuanced with her observations and speculations (although her view on herd immunity seems to contradict the quote above - but then science is about disagreement and debate).  She opines that withe better focused testing and control Covid may settle down to a dynamic equilibrium state that can be managed (cf meningitis, norovirus).

Andy Riley ● 1274d

As I said, a qanon loon

Alan Clark ● 1274d

Michael Brown ● 1274d

Looks like Brown3rd swallowed too much polluted Thames water during his kayak trip on Sunday instead of joining his other looney mates at the demonstration. Mate you must stop making a complete fool of yourself on here. You are a joke.

James Smith-Jones ● 1274d

Michael Brown ● 1274d

Michael Brown ● 1274d

In order to see whether what he says are explosions are  just the affects upon the structure of the absolutely massive amount of stress involved or not, we would have to have something to compare what we know are the effects of explosions/stress on such a huge structure.It's his opinion as far as I can see.

Keith Iddon ● 1274d

Michael Brown ● 1274d

"our resident Holocaust/Twin Towers/Covid Denier, has taken to posting vague, unattributed charts, entirely out-of-context"  Forget him. He is just the forum fool who is only admired and idolised by two other morons. Nobody else takes him seriously.

Steve Taylor ● 1274d

Just admit that you are just another qanon loon.

Alan Clark ● 1274d

It's just too bad that you don't like the fact that Sweden has done so much better than the Uk and many other European countries in every aspect, and without implementing draconian and very damaging diverse measures.

Michael Brown ● 1274d

So what have you to say about the numerous sources I posted which show the extent of the crisis in Sweden?Perhaps you were too busy with your "research" to find the time?So I'll make it simple for you. Sweden currently has 5 x times the death rate of Denmark and approx 10 x times that of Finland and Norway.Meanwhile, as Andrzej Kowalski helpfully points out, even without imposing a mandatory lockdown, its GDP fell more than that of comparable neighbours, Norway, Denmark and Finland which did.Facts, eh?P.S. If you're thinking of posting another irrelevant, unsourced, uncontextualised chart again, forget it. This is a discussion forum, not a false propaganda channel for the unhinged.

Richard Cathcart ● 1274d

No Tier 1, no circuit-breakers, no Tier 3, no fire-breaks, no Tier 2. How do they live?

Michael Brown ● 1274d

Yes, who'd want to be living in Sweden right now? Businesses and bars operating quite normally, no masks, no-one locked up - all free to visit who they like - whilst 'covid' falls and falls and falls. Sounds awful.

Michael Brown ● 1274d

The joke in Sweden is that the 2 meter rule can now go back to the usual 5 meters.

Basil Finnis ● 1274d

It's also worth noting that Sweden's GDP fell by 8.6% in Q2 compared to Q1 - its largest quarterly fall since records began in 1981.  While better than the EU average (-11.4%) and significantly better than the UK (-20.4%), this is larger than any of its Nordic neighbours (Finland -3.2%, Denmark -7.4%, Norway 7.1% March to May) which are probably the best comparators.  So Sweden's approach doesn't seem to have worked well on either the infection front or the economic front.In terms of infection rates, deaths etc.  I'd expect all the Nordics to do better than most of the other European countries, since they are significantly less densely populated, which one would expect to reduce social interaction and hence transmission

Andrzej Kowalski ● 1274d

Good points all.A few months ago I saw a relatively in depth report on Newsnight which was headed up by a Swedish scientist and someone introduced as a cultural commentator, and both agreed that they felt the strategy adopted would prove to be not rigorous enough.It was also pointed out that Swedes were culturally wired to mainly avoid contact with strangers, and were much less likely to interact with someone that they did not know than were us Brits.The point they made was that the restrictions could have been much harsher and would have meant less change in their routines than for people in other countries.

Keith Iddon ● 1274d

Michael Brown ● 1274d