Forum Topic

TfL, London and cycle revenue

Anyone surprised at Sadiq Khan mentioning the threat to London's economy if TfL doesn't get another bail out?Seems to me a revenue stream might help.Let's have a think...what group do we know of that doesn't pay pay anything for using London's infrastructure...?Mandatory.Pay registration.Pay parking.Pay insurance.No more free ride.Revenue stream sorted! No different than building a user base for an app for free and then suddenly, slowly introducing fees. It's only a matter of time.Tick tock.(no, Ruth, shopping by bike doesn't count because we all shop one way or another)

David Lesniak ● 2220d12 Comments

We all pay taxes, one way or another, David. BTW, do you know of any country that insists on what you recommend and what the revenues raised are? We could then have a debate based on facts rather than mudslinging.

David McLoughlin ● 2220d

The vast majority of people who cycle also make use of cars so they will effectively be taxed twice.I don't cycle primarily to save the planet. I do so because it can be cheaper than using a car and as convenient if not more so. Nevertheless I am aware that most of the journeys taken by bike will serve to reduce congestion and pollution. When I am in a car I am grateful to cyclists for taking up less road space.It is beyond dispute that cycling is part of the solution to our transport problems in London and an inherently good thing. By the same token we should not fall into the trap of believing car use is an inherently bad thing.Cycling infrastructure improvements have a massive scope to deliver a latent demand for cycle use in London and in some cases it needs to be recognised that taking road space from motor vehicles will be necessary to achieve this. Unfortunately the measures that have been implemented so far have done little or nothing to make cycling easier in Chiswick with the TGT closure in particular being a major negative. They appear to have been drawn up by an alliance of a council which only considers the revenue potential of any measure and cycling zealots who consider a road closed is always a win.

Andrew OSullivan ● 2220d

A voice of reason.

Steve Taylor ● 2220d

Indeed Steve, I could not agree more with Andrew's post, sums up my position perfectly. It is clear that the cycling lobby groups take an uncompromising approach. They flood consultations and back every measure to the hilt, regardless of its impact on business, the broader community or indeed often other cyclists.David M: 'debate based on facts rather than mudslinging'. I also agree 100%. There are a few things here:* Data where it is available needs to be understood and analysed. Causality is key, do not mistake a coincidence. I am still at a loss to see the linkage between the flower market with local closures. By the same logic as applied by the letter writers, the success of the flower market and lots of cyclists present suggests no need for CS9* Honesty matters: I have done my best not to write anything untrue, one comment proved to be a misinterpretation and was immediately acknowledged as such. Other post intentional misinterpretations of data and statements. This has culminated in a letter to a govnt minister that is completely devoid of substantiating facts and analysis. * If you are going to start a trial and say it will be reviewed, you need to be very clear on some things: what does success look like, how do measure this? If it is not successful, what the options then? In fact before all that, do some planning and assessments. Note all of the above are lacking with the closure of Fishers Lane and TGT* You should also be very clear who can and is able to comment on these schemes. I cannot vote in Sweden and dont expect to. People who live miles away should not be able to influence local planning issues. We often hear these consultations are not referendums from the lobby group, which does raise the question why not and what actually are they (see the point about criteria for success).* Give people a voice: the rise of populism and the recent COVID issues reflect a key issue, many people feel they are not listened to. They see decisions imposed from afar with no recourse. The recent road closures and paramilitary style closure of Staverly Road are good examples of this trend. Having shadowy special interest groups with privileged access to decision makers infuriates people more

Paul Green ● 2220d

Given the clear falsehoods posted around the situation in Park Road today, I have bumped this thread and my thoughts on the need for a proper debate. Honesty (aka not lying) ranks pretty high up.

Paul Green ● 2219d

Japan.Per the example used by many who support cycling infrastructure. They forget the bit about revenue the Japanese system generates. No mudslinging. Just facts. But thanks for the accusation.

David Lesniak ● 2219d

"The vast majority of people who cycle also make use of cars so they will effectively be taxed twice"If a household has more than one car, do they pay tax just once or per vehicle?Bikes are vehicles. Not my words. Just the law.

David Lesniak ● 2219d

You pay VAT when you buy a vehicle.To use or park a vehicle on the public roads you need to pay Vehicle Excise Duty. This is (very) often incorrectly referred to as Road Tax. We haven't had 'Road Tax' in the UK for over 50 years. If you aren't driving a vehicle and are keeping it on a public road, you still need to have paid VED.The rate of VED varies and is £0 for some low emission vehicles.As I asked c james, if you were charging VED on a cycle, how would you determine the appropriate rate? The amount of emmisions the vehicle puts out? The road space it occupies? The amount of damage the vehicle does to the existing road infrastructure?And would you increase the VED for those vehicles that currently don't pay anything?

Andrew Jones ● 2219d

Thanks David for quoting Japan as an example about cycling revenue. I got this from the Intrepid website:Brush up on the rules of the roadIn Japan, you cycle on the left. Cycling under the influence of alcohol is illegal and you’re not officially allowed to ride on the pavement or while speaking on the phone or carrying an umbrella. In reality, few of these rules are enforced – most locals actually ride on the pavement instead of the road, and many hold umbrellas and chat on phones.My brother has been learning Japanese for over 10 years  and has visited most years. He usually cycles to the language school. His comments:Japanese people are generally more polite than British people and so although most cycle paths are on the pavement, most people ride ungeared bikes in the city. So they don't cycle at high speeds or attempt to break through groups of cyclists who are traveling more slowly.Bikes have to have a registration plate/sticker which is purchased at the same time as the bike is purchased and also have to  park without causing obstructions, e.g. at pedestrian crossings. Congested urban areas have designated bike parks. Cyclists are not generally compelled  to have liability insurance.  The registration fee is 500 yen (about £4) see: https://ajet.net/jet-resources/daily-jet-life/bicycle-registration/.They do have to have lights and helmets are not compulsory for over 13s.The insurance situation changed in April and in Tokyo bike insurance is now compulsory:https://www.realestate-tokyo.com/living-in-tokyo/transportation/bicycle-rules/However, the rules make it clear that the liability insurance is usually covered by house or car insurance, as is common here.I think the conclusions must be:1) cycling taxes are insignificant in Japan2) Reducing conflict between cyclists and other pavement/road users is dependent on two things:a) providing a better cycling infrastructureb) promoting cultural change amongst all road and pavement users: emphasising civility and recognition of the fact that we have to SHARE.

David McLoughlin ● 2218d

My son lives in Tokyo and I can confirm that cyclists and pedestrians there live in perfect harmony. Walking along one is never alarmed by bikes which glide quietly past. There are cycle parks, especially near stations where thousands of bikes seem to be stacked up. Better still, there is no need for expensive padlocks as no one seems to steal bikes.

Vivienne Cox ● 2217d

They only borrow them...https://japantoday.com/category/crime/fukuoka-man-cleared-of-theft-charges-because-he-was-'only-borrowing'-victim%E2%80%99s-bike

Tom Trower ● 2217d

If only, if only British cyclists could become civilised and behave like the Japanese. What a pleasure it would be. Possibly a first step would be to ban geared bikes in cities to stop the lycra louts from speeding about dangerously jumping red lights etc.  If they want to get fit, no gears is the answer!

Steve Taylor ● 2217d