Forum Topic

Turnham Green Terrace car access

I need to take prints to the picture framers in TGT - could some kind soul explain what I can and can't do, in terms of taking my car down there? I've tried to look at the Hounslow council website but it doesn't really make it clear enough. It does state that there are bays for 'picking up and dropping off items' but through traffic is banned. So can I enter the Chiswick Road end, park and then turn around and exit the same way? Or enter the Bath Road end, and then turn around and leave the same way?

Birna Helgadottir ● 2254d61 Comments

If the purpose of your journey is just to drop off some prints at Aram, you can stop on the double yellow line north of the bus stop.  Don't stop directly outside Aram because that's in the bus stop.Or if there's a empty parking bay across the road, you can park there.Afterwards, you can leave TGT in either direction. Your access to Aram means that you are exempted from the no-motor-vehicles restriction.

Richard Jennings ● 2254d

Thanks Richard! So are there cameras at each end of TGT to spot cars going down there as through traffic?

Birna Helgadottir ● 2254d

I don't know what cameras they have.  I was concentrating on what would be allowed by the signs.

Richard Jennings ● 2254d

There are no cameras - not that I've spotted anyway.If you were to later receive a fine in the post contact Cllr Guy Lambert who has said that any inadvertent infringements would be treated leniently.Richard's advice seems sound. Better to park on the double yellows than in the disabled bays.

Mark Evans ● 2254d

This is an utter farce - LBH how about some clear and unambiguous signage ? Or are you really committed to catching out motorists who trying to support businesses on TGT ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2254d

Legally the official signs are quite 'clear and unambiguous'. They mean 'No motor vehicles except for Access' with other exemptions for buses and taxis. The problem is that not enough drivers are taking any notice of them, either intentionally or because they don't 'see' them.  While this would make an interesting behavioural study, we need to get this scheme working safely as intended or scrap it. There's certainly more that could be done to make what's intended more obvious by changing the road markings at either end of TGT and removing the mini-roundabout, or even putting some planters at each end to narrow the entrance to TGT to leave enough space for a bus to get through but make other drivers think 'hang on, what's happened here?' But this must be happening all over the country where these schemes are introduced. It could be that the 'low flying motorbike' sign just isn't well enough understood, nor, from the debate on this site, what 'Access' actually means.  Perhaps the DfT needs to reconsider their use and change their design guidance accordingly. I suspect the only sign drivers really take notice of is 'No Entry' for fear of meeting something big coming at them the other way.

Peter Evans ● 2254d

There appears to be a ANPR camera on the lampost just before the bus stop on the west side of the road capturing cars travelling southbound, just outside Chiswick Barbers

James Hansfield ● 2254d

I have been told by the LBH head of transport that there are no fixed ANPR cameras on Turnham Green Terrace yet.  Enforcement is being done by mobile CCTV van.  If you see it and you travel through without stopping to load/unload you will be fined.  ANPR cameras will be installed in due course but LBH would not reveal the date when I asked.

Joanna Biddolph ● 2254d

What about  the one by TG tube station, Jo, thar used to get cars dropping off there?

Claire Moran ● 2254d

That one used to get people who stopped at the bus stop or the taxi rank or waiting at the station for an arriving passenger.  Dropping off there is allowed.  As far as I know that camera doesn't have any ANPR capability.

Richard Jennings ● 2254d

Loraine, why do you find it farcical that someone has to issue a plea online to micro-engineer her visit to shops in the community to avoid getting a fine? Surely that makes perfect sense, no? Is it really any wonder why people shop online?

David Lesniak ● 2253d

DavidYou misunderstand, what's farcical is LBH'S through traffic closure of TGT and the difficulties in getting in and out and parking. Hope this clarifies my position for you.

Loraine Pemberton ● 2253d

You can access, but only to park and shop or drop or pickup, but make sure you keep a receipt as any PCN you get you’ll prove that you were legitimately accessing for shopping reasons and you won’t get fined. Devonshire Rd, is the same but the only cameras they have is a mobile unit parked at then end of Devonshire Rd, and it’s not always there. I also understand, Fishers Lane, underpass has currently no cameras.

c james ● 2253d

Perhaps more people should learn the Highway Code - what happened to all the Cycling Proficiency Tests - and maybe car drivers should have have to have update and reminder tests - like a sort of CPD.

Philippa Bond ● 2253d

Spot on, Philippa. Proficiency tests for all vehicle operators of whatever kind should be required. If you want re-qualification testing, it should be across the board. Otherwise, yet again, you demand one thing for one set of users whilst letting the others go unchecked. Or worse, ignorant.

David Lesniak ● 2253d

The reason for drivers using TGT as a through route isn't lack of knowledge of the Highway Code so much as familiarity with the area (which causes people to be less attentive to signs), coupled with the fact that, in the midst of all the street clutter, it's easy for Eastbound traffic to miss them at the CHR end, whilst drivers on the Bath Road, after possibly being unsighted by a bus at the bus stop, will first be concentrating on pedestrians approaching the crossing and then looking  to their right for vehicles which have priority. But clearly there is a lack of understanding of the flying motor bike signs in Fishers Lane. They don't stop the delivery riders who congregate outside Nandos from zooming down there.

Robert Fish ● 2253d

What happens if I drive down TGT to stop and do some shopping but cannot find a parking space and therefore have to drive out again, am I going to be fined?  How is the CCTV van (or the ANPR camera) going to know the difference me genuinely looking to park and someone just driving through?

Caroline Hawkins ● 2252d

If there's no available parking in TGT it might be worth turning round and driving out the way you came to avoid your intentions being misunderstood. It doesn't matter if you hold up the traffic while you do it, as there shouldn't be any trying to drive through.

Peter Evans ● 2252d

Recently I spoke to the kind owners of the jewellery shop "Marmalade" on TGT (let's try to support them by visiting the shop) who explained they were in touch with Hounslow council and the rules are you can stop on the double yellow lines but only to "deliver or collect".  If this is correct it rules out "spur of the moment shopping" because you are not "delivering or collecting".  Thus if you 'phone Mackens to order some goods and collect them later, you can park to do that. But you can't if you just park, drop in and buy them. One can imagine the cross-examination at the parking-fine court: "it's a bare-face lie, isn't it, Mr Snodgrass- you never ordered those sausages, did you? I put it to you, you just bought them on a moment's impulse, didn't you?"

Chris Shepherd ● 2252d

Som moo How dare you Yeh,Prick with a fork we feared the wurst

Julian Pavey ● 2252d

Julian, I’ve just read your opaque little post.  If you have the courage, stiffen your sinews and send me a p/m.  Then we can meet, make acquaintance and you can let me know what’s causing your anxiety:  face to face.

Chris Shepherd ● 2249d

He was making a joke Chris. Not at your expense. Your point is well made. Whatever happens with enforcement, it looks like we will get a complicated series of rules, difficult to enforce and subject to a range of interpretations. That is likely to mean the well-connected and the well-represented will get off but the rest of us won't. Two traders on the affected roads have told me that it is the confusion over the restrictions not the restrictions themselves that are killing their business at the moment.

Francis Rowe ● 2249d

Im confused Its a sausage follow on from the court A bit of silliness. And yes,francis is correct,not directed at you but the parking judicator.

Julian Pavey ● 2249d

Ah, fair enough Julian, I'm sorry about the stroppy comment in that case.

Chris Shepherd ● 2249d

No problem whatsoever

Julian Pavey ● 2249d

I have just had a parking ticket in the post.  I drove down it last Thursday, totally oblivious of any driving restrictions.  It was dark.  What do I do now?  Appeal it?  Genuinely did not know....

Eileen Francis ● 2249d

Eileen Perhaps PM Richard Jennings whose on this thread, what this gentleman doesn't know about driving and parking infringements isn't worth knowing.

Loraine Pemberton ● 2249d

"It was dark.  What do I do now?  Appeal it?"Report it to Cllr Guy Lambert and have him get it cancelled.

Steve Taylor ● 2249d

Eileen, I've sent you a PM.

Richard Jennings ● 2249d

Richard is the acknowledged expert on these matters and you should pay what he says due regards.My own view is that you may be bang to rights. The signage may not be that easy to see but the council is adamant it is within the requirements of the law and presumably that is the view of their legal department.These things can be subjective and there may be grounds for an appeal to the adjudicator which Richard or someone else can dig up. If the council isn't 100% sure of their legal standing the last thing they will want is the adjudicator to rule against them creating a precedent for everyone else. Therefore they might decide to let you off if you can present a half way credible argument.

Francis Rowe ● 2249d

Cllrs Hanif Khan and Guy Lambert have said that leniency would be applied in the initial stages of enforcement so an informal appeal to the council in the first instance might be successful. If you tell them you were unaware of the changes, were just following the normal flow of traffic and promise not to do it again, they may find it in their heart to let you off. If not there probably will be grounds on which you can make a formal appeal.

Paul Corcoran ● 2248d

" and presumably that is the view of their legal department."Aah yes but their legal department doesn't have a very good track record does it?

Steve Taylor ● 2248d

Having been through the appeals process with a personal hearing back in the days of PATAS it's not legal rocket science. If the signage is compliant to the regulations, and as long as the restriction has been correctly enacted by means of TMO,experimental TMO or whatever, then if a PCN is issued and you appeal it and your appeal is turned down by the council, you really are relying on the council to have made a mistake either in the signage or the formal processes that it's applied prior to bringing in the restrictions to have a realistic chance of an appeal succeeding. I was successful in one of my appeals as the relevant signage on the other side of the road (while correct) was obscured by a lorry with a skip on it going in the opposite direction at the time I could have seen one of the signs, and I proved the sign on my side was obscured by foliage.If it hadn't been for that lorry that was clearly seen in the video, I wouldn't have bothered appealing (and if I had I would have lost).You can't rely on Hounslow's legal department getting it wrong in what is fairly straightforward stuff.

Andrew Jones ● 2248d

Reading through these posts am I correct in thinking one is not permitted to drive from Bath Road down Turnham Green Terrace to the High Road, even driving straight through without stopping?  I have been away for a couple of weeks and knew entering TGT from the High Road was not allowed, but didn't realise it is both directions?  I did this last evening, saw no signs, so guess I now await a fine .. ??

Felicity Langton ● 2247d

No through traffic is allowed.  You are only allowed up or down TGT  if you are collecting or delivering to a particular shop.

Lucy Chambers ● 2247d

"I have been away for a couple of weeks and knew entering TGT from the High Road was not allowed, but didn't realise it is both directions?"Yes, it's no entry except for access in both directions, and has been like that for at least 6 weeks. There has been a yellow sign in Bath Road near the Arts Ed since mid-July saying "TURNHAM GREEN TERRACE / NO THROUGH ROUTE / ACCESS ONLY".  There is a "no motor vehicles" sign as you enter TGT at the mini-roundabout.However, it may not be so clear after dark, which is what Eileen found coming in the other direction.

Richard Jennings ● 2247d

Hi Felicity,There isn't (AFAIK) permanent enforcement of the restrictions. As it was late evening, I'd expect you have a good chance of not receiving a PCN simply because I expect there's less likelihood of a camera car sitting somewhere at that time.Fingers crossed.

Andrew Jones ● 2247d

For everyone who disagrees with the closure of TGT and Fishers lane please make sure you sign the petition if you have not done so already  and write to Ealing and Hounslow.  The details are on the petition . Do also forward to others. The only way we can get this overturned is to make our opinions very clear.http://chng.it/BFbxXWWv

Dr Andrew Levison ● 2247d

Signed and shared...I can only wonder if the likes of Messrs Pike, Campbell, Smart, Watson, Swain etc have signed and therefore support our independent retailers  ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2247d

Enforcement is currently being done by mobile CCTV camera. If you saw it on TGT it is highly likely you will be fined. Fixed ANPR cameras will be installed in due course but when is a mystery; I've been told that we will not be told.

Joanna Biddolph ● 2247d

"I can only wonder if the likes of Messrs Pike, Campbell, Smart, Watson, Swain etc have signed and therefore support our independent retailers"I can answer this, Loraine: no.They'd rather claim businesses on the other side of the river in TW9 - a 13-minute 4-mile drive across the bridge - is local. They'd prefer to have swipes at someone like me who posed a question as to why they didn't support any local business when a query was posed on the forum about having a cake delivered.As per usual, when you point out inconsistencies in logic, you get trolled and troped. I think I delight most in the position of delivery not being sustainable and taking business away from those in the delivery postcode.Pretty much the business model of Amazon et al. Yet let's have a go at the sole trader for all climate issues. And this passes for supporting local independent traders.Bravo, gents. Bravo.

David Lesniak ● 2246d

"Enforcement is currently being done by mobile CCTV camera."They are also using the fixed camera on the High Road outside Barclays Bank, which has a view along the whole length of Turnham Green Terrace.

Richard Jennings ● 2246d

I would love to know what the intent is.... the tube station is now not accessible by car, the shops are all losing trade, anyone who lives in the Bedford park area has to do at least a mile detour to get home and horrendous traffic during rush hour on Chiswick high road  south parade and Acton lane which can only get worse leading to increased pollution, congestion and probably more accidents. Buses delayed because of the traffic congestion Etc, etc. I just don’t understand why any council would knowingly hinder local businesses during a pandemic when they have already lost 5 months of trade. I think there needs to be more than a petition, we need to protest in person...

Jane Kay Etherington ● 2246d

"the tube station is now not accessible by car"You can still drop off or pick up a passenger there.  It counts as access.  But if picking up, don't wait there for the train to arrive.  And if approaching from the south, do a U-turn on TGT instead of using the mini-roundabout.

Richard Jennings ● 2246d

TGT restrictions came long after the height of the pandemic. Can someone explain to me how stopping car entering and exiting TGT help with the virus? we are all already stressed out why make the citizen of Chiswick worry sick about going about our normal business? And destroying TGT businesses

Sophie Atkinson ● 2246d

That's the essence of it Sophie. These measures were authorised specifically to help with managing some of the consequences of the pandemic, supposedly creating more space for pedestrians and encouraging cycling while public transport was being avoided. I'm afraid these aims seem to have been subsumed in a more general anti-car movement. I find it had to believe that closing Turnham Green Terrace to vehicular though traffic is in practice helping anyone - pedestrians, cyclists or drivers. I fall into all of those classes and there is nothing to benefit me no matter which mode of travel I select.

Bruce Hammal ● 2246d

Along with Fishers Lane, goal posts have moved. Both become part of the plans for the 'temporary' CS9. To compensate for loss of key stretches of bus lane, non-bus traffic will be restricted from entering the central area. I cannot see how reopening TGT really would impact that, no eastbound bus lanes are going. The westbound loss is the section in front of the police station. With questions over whether TFL will ever have the funds to build the original CS9, these changes risk being permanent. Truly awful congestion on routes around the High Road, death for the shops and restaurants. No formal plans, no consultation, no democracy.

Paul Green ● 2246d

"I just don’t understand why any council would knowingly hinder local businesses during a pandemic when they have already lost 5 months of trade"LBH's track record for business support during the pandemic has been abysmal. Whilst draft guidance was adopted by other boroughs stipulating a £100 cap for a 12-month pavement license, LBH still wanted to charge venues full whack: £123 application fee plus £54/sqm for a 6-month license so double that.It should be noted Wandsworth waived fees entirely.

David Lesniak ● 2246d

I raised this in another thread which ended up in me having an email "conversation" with Guy Lambert. I challenged the fact that the "temporary" measures we know and love so well actually formed an intrinsic part of the new CW/CS9 scheme which as you say may well end up being a feature of the High Road for many years to come. Legally I would have thought this is dubious to say the least.

Bruce Hammal ● 2246d

As others have pointed out, the basic objective of this scheme was to provide more space for pedestrians to move about and shops to operate safely during the virus. Suspending the parking bays to allow pedestrians to spread into the road and for shops and cafes to spread out onto the pavement would seem to meet that requirement. Restricting motor traffic might help cyclists but this aspect of the scheme clearly isn't working so probably needs to be abandoned. Devonshire Road seems to work better as there was less traffic using it anyway and there are a couple of planters at one end to reinforce the message.

Peter Evans ● 2246d

But if Cycleway 9 has these temporary  measures factored ito its traffic calculations, what chance of rolling back despite the evidence - let alone the damage to fragile egos?

Bruce Hammal ● 2246d

Further to the earlier discussion, the Department of Transport Traffic Sign Manual 2018 para 11.2.3 suggests that signs referring to 'banned manoeuvres and vehicle restrictions' need to be illuminated.  That would appear to include the new No Left/Right turn signs as well as the No Motor Vehicles they've just put up.

Peter Evans ● 2244d

Assuming the signs aren't illuminated would this just be a 'Get out of Jail card' for anyone caught on camera after sunset/twilight? Richard?

Andrew Jones ● 2244d

"Further to the earlier discussion, the Department of Transport Traffic Sign Manual 2018 [Chapter 1] para 11.2.3 suggests that signs referring to 'banned manoeuvres and vehicle restrictions' need to be illuminated."But note also that para 11.2.4 says that "There are relaxations on lighting signs within 20 mph speed limits", which applies for example to Turnham Green Terrace.  Within a 20mph limit, the signs only need to be reflectorised, which I think they all are.However, a combination of sign positioning, size and lack of illumination, and the presence of other signs and of illuminated shops and bars can mean that some of the new traffic restrictions are not adequately drawn to drivers' attention after dark. As you are waiting at the traffic lights to turn left into TGT, the one visible no-motor-vehicles sign is unlit and 40 metres away. On the traffic lights themselves there are only no-right-turn signs (to stop entry into Annandale Road). 

Richard Jennings ● 2244d

Has anyone had a ticket yet?I have been driving up and down TGT and Fishers Lane and nothing yet.

Rahman Hyatt ● 2244d

At least one poster said they had personally received a PCN, for driving along TGT. Can't remember her name, but it was in the last week she posted I think.

Andrew Jones ● 2244d

Good to knowAs soon I get one I’ll start a new postI have saved so much money by not shopping on TGT and few tickets won’t make much differenceAnd then at least I can contest all the PCN’s, should keep LBH busy for few days

Rahman Hyatt ● 2244d

Enforcement is currently being done by mobile CCTV van.  If you see it and have used the road incorrectly, you are highly likely to be fined.  ANPR cameras will be installed in due course but I've been told that we will not be told when. I have asked about the camera at the end of TGT which appears to be monitoring the use of the road - several residents have emailed to ask about them, assuming they related to this scheme.  I've been told that it is not part of the scheme.  Having said that, given that we won't be told when the ANPR cameras are in place, any camera could be linked to this scheme.

Joanna Biddolph ● 2244d

ok thanks good to knowWill be interesting how the decide what is a genuine access or not, especially if you drive in and find there is no parking

Rahman Hyatt ● 2243d

"I have asked about the camera at the end of TGT which appears to be monitoring the use of the road ... I've been told that it is not part of the scheme."Nevertheless, as I said earlier in this thread, that camera (outside Barclays Bank) has been used to provide evidence for at least one PCN for driving along TGT without making access.

Richard Jennings ● 2243d

Why this obsession with the cameras when there are signs for all to see? If people are asking about the cameras they must be familiar with what's required.

Peter Evans ● 2243d