Forum Topic

Hounslow's tone-deaf licensing fees

For all the talk of healthy streets and current measures being taken to provide for distancing, take this into consideration when wondering why businesses remain shut, continue to shut or don't avail themselves of outdoor space: Hounslow hasn't changed its pavement licensing fees.Their only concession is to reduce the consultation from 28 days to seven. All other fees remain as they were before the pandemic. Translation: pay what you normally would but don't use it to the same extent. Info I had to struggle to find. Other councils have loads of easily available info to help businesses recover, maximize potential and provide distancing. Not so LBH.Westminster abides by the current draft guidance kindly shared by Michael Robinson on another thread. Venues can pay a flat £100 fee for a 12-month pavement license. Available adjacent space can also  be accessed be it pavement or roadway. This mimics the policy in New York City.Just this week, Hammersmith publicised its "Our Space is Your Space" scheme allowing, among other things, venues to spread out across neighboring frontage to provide distancing and/or more tables. I have yet to learn what related fees are in LBHF.For comparison, the cost to use two square meters of pavement for 12-months in LBH would be £462 versus the £100 flat fee equivalent in Westminster. Take a look around, folks. Two square meters allows for nearly nothing in normal times, even less now. A table for two uses roughly two square meters. So to provide outdoor, socially-distanced seating for ten requires a minimum of 20 square meters. Perhaps more. Fees in Hounslow are as follows: £123 for application (6-month license) and £54/square meter used. So, for a twelve-month license it would run any Hounslow business £2406 per year. It would cost any Westminster business £100. This from an outer borough. At a time of crisis.Do the math.It doesn't add up.

David Lesniak ● 2298d63 Comments

David,The government draft guidance for pavement licences I provided a link for is part of the "Business and Planning Bill 2019-21" which is currently working its way through parliament. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/pavement-licences-draft-guidance/draft-guidance-pavement-licences-outdoor-seating-proposalThe next link shows what needs to be done before it becomes law. I couldn't find an exact date when the legislation will be passed other than "end of the month" (and I'm not defending how parliament goes about its business...)https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2019-21/businessandplanning.htmlThe guidelines say the consultation period is 5 working days so I'd have thought Hounslow must follow this when the legislation is passed, along with all the other requirements.As you say, it seems other councils have already changed their licensing in anticipation of the new legislation.  I had posted these example before on another thread but you may have missed them.Enfield has introduced new pavement licensing guidelines in advance of the government passing legislation.https://twitter.com/BetterSt4Enf/status/1279132131135021056?s=20It looks like Wandsworth has done this as well (there are lots of tweets of Northcote Rd closed to traffic - it looks great)https://twitter.com/rorymeakin/status/1281969164496908295?s=20https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/news/july-2020/council-secures-al-fresco-green-light-for-northcote-road-s-pubs-bars-and-restaurants/I agree that I don't see what is to be gained waiting for legislation given some other boroughs seem to have already implemented it.Is this something to raise again to Hounslow licensing and councillors citing the examples of boroughs that have changed their licensing policy already?

Michael Robinson ● 2298d

David, I feel for you.Something must be done to expose this.I don't know what but a thought springs to mind.Get the media involved. Maybe mark out the space you would like to use highlighting the cost in Hounslow as opposed to Westminister and call in the Evening Standard, the Metro etc to run a story.I don't have the contacts  otherwise I would be glad to help but I am sure someone in Chiswick will

Adrian Irving ● 2298d

Adrian,Hounslow are likely to say "we are waiting for the government to pass the legislation".  I don't see anything particularly newsworthy about 3 boroughs doing some things in advance and 29 waiting.I agree there should be pressure on Hounslow to meet the new guidelines ASAP but this is what our local councillors are meant to do.

Michael Robinson ● 2298d

We will agree to disagree then.

Adrian Irving ● 2298d

Can I crave mitigation? David has, in his own unique style advised us of this proposed legislation. The Council Leader,The Executive Director and the Assistant Director Licensing have been  made aware of his displeasure and ours.

John Todd ● 2298d

JohnWell done and, as ever, you have got it spot on.

Loraine Pemberton ● 2298d

"we are waiting for the government to pass the legislation"Michael I did see the links you provided for other boroughs already putting in place what I will call COVID recovery initiatives. Thank you as that helps point out just how clueless Hounslow Cabinet is.For LBH to plead "we're waiting" is absurd. What it does is expose the truth: there is a leadership vacuum complicating all business efforts at recovery. Plain and simple.Looked at another way, you have a council clinging to a fee structure while simultaneously enforcing less use of what is being paid for. In effect it is a price increase as the cost per square meter has risen. To Adrian's point, the press release will read HOUNSLOW COUNCIL RAISES LICENSING FEES FOR PAVEMENT SEATING. Has a nice ring to it, no?From experience I know increasing these fees was the result of an extended consultation period. That did not happen. So you also have LBH operating outside the norm of government standard. When they did raise the rates in 2017, they eagerly cited examples from around the city as evidence of why they were increasing rates.And yet you provide plenty of current evidence they are ignoring.Call me crazy but during an economic crisis one shouldn't cling to a pet project/agenda. Nor should you refuse to take questions from your constituents during a public forum.

David Lesniak ● 2297d

From the links you provided, Michael.Wandsworth:To ensure that all hospitality businesses across the borough can lawfully access outside space and set up tables and chairs for their customers, the council has agreed to simplify the process of applying for a street licence and WAIVE THE NORMAL FEES.Enfield:The Council is offering a streamlined application process for table and chairs licenses, with a small administrative fee of £100, and giving business a grace period allowing them to use tables and chairs outside - while their application is being determined - as long as they do not cause an obstruction.Both of the above are dated 3 July which was perfectly timed for re-opening on 4 July.Two weeks later and Hounslow is business as usual. Full fees but reduced use.

David Lesniak ● 2297d

The legislation to allow local authorities to make changes that will then be covered by insurance should something go wrong such as a car mounting a pavement crashing into tables and injuring people has not been passed. So the council is under no obligation to put public funds at risk so you can extend the limit of your business. And shouting about what you see as if it were a human rights issue is quite frankly at this time in the worlds history a bit much.  The councils priorities right now are the people who live in the borough first and businesses second. Many Chiswick businesses took part in helping emergency front line workers with meals. Some helped as volunteers. At a time when people cannot bury their loved ones in their appropriate manner and are unable to visit their shielding relatives I think your cheap headline grabber is quite frankly tawdry and insensitive.  The council workers have stepped up to the plate as far as help for small businesses are concerned especially ones that have staff.  There are regular bulletins out telling people about money they can apply for at this time.  There are thousands of unemployed people in Hounslow who were sacked by airlines and have real problems feeding their families paying their mortgages or rents and staying safe. It is your right to complain about things effecting you and yours but give a care people did not take kindly to Richard Branson's begging bowl. We also have a few more hurdles to go through in this pandemic and we have been let out to play far to early and will be paying for it dearly in the coming weeks.  As someone shielding due to the virus meaning certain death your cakes are not on my priority list for food right now.

Caroline Carney ● 2297d

Bloody hell, talk about a gross over-reaction.When did a plea for a level playing field descend into a rant about people not being able to bury their relatives?When someone who was seeking to be offended, simply over-reacted as is the case with so many threads on the fora.I am sorry that you are having to shield, I have family members doing the same but, thankfully, none of them are using this as a reason to rant about pavement space.

N V Brooks ● 2297d

Caroline,A tad harsh in my view.A popular Chiswick restaurant forced to close for months virtually overnight.Now re-open only to have major gas works virtually outside their front door.I know David and his colleagues have contributed food to the community.I support their campaign to get the benefit of temporary Covid legislation  John

John Todd ● 2297d

The variation of do's and don't between London boroughs is a mystery to me and really quite irritating.For example,in Westminster a scooter or motorbike can travel (more safely) in bus lanes but the moment you cross into another borough you can't even though you are on the same blooming road!Time things were brought into alignment.

Adrian Irving ● 2297d

You would think that an effective mayor would help to resolve such disparities.If only we had one!

N V Brooks ● 2297d

Cllr ToddI completely agree with every word of your post. Outsider Tart (David Lesniak and his Patrner) have contributed food for those less fortunate in our community. Shame on anyone who denigrated their contributions.

Loraine Pemberton ● 2297d

They also maintain the outside area around the Ewe tree. Good citizens making Chiswick a better place.

Carl Wynne ● 2297d

If a local cafe just went ahead and put a few tables and chairs out on the pavement, what would actually happen in these chaotic times?

Peter Evans ● 2297d

They would be most likely fined as the legislation is not law yet.  I did not rant and I made no mention of the business concerned.  I did not say that Mr. Lesniak had not helped in the time of crisis I simply wished to point out there are much more serious things for local authorities now to consider.  I did not rant I explained my feeling on the matter.  I did not shout as Mr. Lesniak did and I did not say anything rude to him.  If you don't like people speaking about such matters they feel very angry about then stop posting your own anger.  Free speech works 2 ways you say your piece and everyone comments on it there is nothing that says Mr. Lesniak has no right to say what he said. he is understandably worried himself about how to make ends meet and will his business go under but so are every other business in the High Rd and greater W4 area.  The difference is they are not shouting about it they are mucking in and getting on.  They also seem to understand something Mr. Lesniak doesn't. When local government has no legal duty it is their choice what to do in the interim.  Maybe they chose to wait for the legislation because like many other authorities they are worried about the next stage of the virus when we have not actually gone fully through the first according to the scientists.  If I was him I would be shouting at the government who are delaying passing the law because they too are expecting more to come.  Given the horrendous way people behaved during the lockdown when they came to Chiswick to empty our supermarkets and have picnic's on the green with no masks or 2 meters apart I am surprised we have not turned into Leicester yet.  As a wheelchair user I would welcome legislation that limits tables and other street furniture near parking spaces and safe drop off points as I know of a number of near misses that happened before the lockdown.  If we had an emergency government with party representatives this may have not happened as it did.  But it did and they are still incompetently waffling on

Caroline Carney ● 2297d

Ye Gods and little fishes.Please look up the word brevity and stop ranting!!!

N V Brooks ● 2297d

I will ignore the somewhat bizarre rants and fully support David here. At a time when many local businesses are struggling, LBH should do anything they can to help them. Chiswick already suffers from excessive rates and rents, and high fees for pavement use should go. The closure of DR to encourage more visitors would have been an ideal time to allow fast and cheap pavement use.

Paul Green ● 2297d

Do you understand the use of paragraphs?

Carl Wynne ● 2297d

Is that a useful or constructive comment or are you reverting to your style of old ?A completely unnecessary and petty post, I'd come to expect better from you ☹

Loraine Pemberton ● 2297d

Agree with Paul absolutely.

Janice Evans ● 2297d

Caroline-It appears my post has offended you. My apologies.In point of fact, my partner and I both live and work in Chiswick and have done so for the past twelve years. We are one of those businesses who pivoted the best we could to help out front line workers with our EMT friend Martin's help. We even delivered £1 bags of flour for free to those isolating. Not really a money-maker, that. But we did so to serve a community in dire need and we chose not to inflate prices which would have penalized folks who had little option available. We also have staff. So I'm a bit mystified how you support the likes of larger companies getting aid for those in the aviation sector, as an example, but you are downright angry that the shops serving your very community should simply sit back, relax and continue to get pummeled. Dare I say you're missing a trick? Without shops you won't have a High Road. And LBH is now the only borough to my knowledge that has RAISED license fees by charging the same but allowing less use of the space. Other councils have recognized the urgency of the situation not just for hospitality, but for all High Road businesses. So much so they have WAIVED the fees and expedited consultation. Today I've learned the Crown Estate is now charging rent for tenants based on takings, not market rates (as if they apply any more) in an effort to prop up those businesses renting premises from them. All an acknowledgement the economic storm has just begun. Have you any idea what Chiswick landlords are doing? I do. Some are demanding rent get paid and others are letting arrears accrue as if all will be well eventually and that debt will need to be repaid. You can add to that things like utilities, insurances, other pertinient license fees, etc., etc. So please explain why you think it acceptable to be charged £3500 for something another council would only charge £100 for? And why any business of any sort in any location should be saddled with such a burden at a time like this? I'm also curious if you think I'm not having problems feeding my family and that of my staff. Or my rents. Or other bills. Because even taking this issue out of the equation for argument's sake, business of late has been shit. For everyone. And that will only trickle down back to you. So have a think about that.But I will admit with rants like yours I often scratch my head and wonder why doing anything at all community minded is worth it.

David Lesniak ● 2296d

"incompetently waffling on"Indeed. Hounslow Council is doing just that.In addition to mucking and getting, we are shouting. We are multi-faceted that way.There are multiple examples of local councils actually leading and taking initiative in the interim to help business. Hounslow is not one of them. It never has been.Instead, it chooses to throw up literal and proverbial road blocks. I believe speaking out is what you call holding to account, is it not? I'm unaware of yelling. YELLING LOOKS LIKE THIS. Not this.Please note two things with respect to those who are physically challenged. Years ago we applied to build a ramp but were refused by Hounslow on the grounds it would limit the ability to re-open that bit of Chiswick Lane long since closed before we got there. We pleaded with them to include whatever contractual wording they saw fit obliging us to remove any ramp upon their demand. But no. Secondly, what is being done with emergency seating, lets call it, is to adhere to all requirements regarding setbacks and clearances. Other than that businesses are free to use the space. Hammersmith calls it "Our Space is Your Space." They, too, are a Labour led council.And because we know other venues nearby are short on pavement space, we contacted them to let them know we would be raising the issue and we have made a provision for roughly a third of the seating to be made available to the general public and other venues. Mind you, we get left with the trash to clear up, namely from KFC, but if that's what it takes for everyone to benefit then so be it.

David Lesniak ● 2296d

"I don't see anything particularly newsworthy about 3 boroughs doing some things in advance and 29 waiting."I believe the Media love to publish data on Rotten Boroughs such as Hounslow.

Steve Taylor ● 2296d

For once I agree with Carl. Caroline's lengthy posts would be easier to read if they were broken up into paragraphs.

Richard Greenhough ● 2296d

Damn you and your community spirit! :-)I get (expletive deleted) angry when some petty official finds a reason to prevent a business providing disabled access((yes, I am severely mobility-impaired) while, at the same time putting more hurdles in the way of the businesses that, indirectly, pay their salaries.As has been suggested, drop a line to Rotten Boroughs at Private Eye (they are VERY responsive).strobes@private-eye.co.uk

N V Brooks ● 2296d

Sadly this thread provides, at least for me, yet another example of LBH actively trying to destroy Chiswick High Road as a destination for shopping or eating out.  Whether that is jealousy , petty party politics (Chiswick being the Tory enclave in the perfect LBH Labour heartland) or just incompetence is impossible to assess but the results are clear.

Justin Stephenson ● 2295d

Thanks for the email, NV. I had no idea they even existed.As has been mentioned by others, a press release is in the making for any variety of outcomes. Continued negligence/ineptitude? Got one for that. Putting furniture out and getting a PCN during a global emergency? Got one for that. Ruth Cadbury MIA as usual? Got one for that. LBH standing pat on current licensing fees? Got one for that. And one that hopefully won't gather dust is the one where LBH comes to its senses.I do find it odd Guy Lambert hasn't weighed in as he likes to peruse this site and comment on all manner of issues.But my humble thanks to all who understand the situation and how it will impact the local economy in Chiswick and beyond throughout Hounslow.

David Lesniak ● 2295d

David, if you have time enter the search term "hounslow private eye rotten boroughs" into google and sit back to read quite how often LBH feature.

N V Brooks ● 2295d

'IF' LBH can fund the temporary CW9 structure surely they can fund / give financial help to our hard pressed independent traders ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2295d

Hounslow should lay down guidelines to follow and then de-regulate this until we reach some version of normality.

Carl Wynne ● 2295d

"Hounslow should lay down guidelines to follow and then de-regulate this until we reach some version of normality."Bingo. Precisely that which other boroughs have done.In an email to all the usual suspects yesterday, we told LBH effective immediately we will be putting out tables and chairs in line with current setback/clearance guidelines. Approximately a third will be available to the general public and other nearby venues who don't benefit from expansive pavement. We pledged to keep the area maintained. We will pay the £123 fee which is 23% above the £100 pound cap set forth by other boroughs and current draft guidance. Ruth Cadbury replied. Respectfully, we'll see if that translates into anything as she has a history of responding but then dropping the ball. I questioned LBH transparency on existing applications given LBH is taking payment as usual yet things change on a daily basis. Same fees but less space means an increase. To increase fees there must be a consultation as LBH laid out meticulously in 2017 when it raised them to current levels. No consultation occurred which begs the question if what's being done is legal at all.Good to know that during times of economic crisis, the party that's all about jobs is focusing on transport. Not employment and stabilising the economy let alone laying groundwork for recovery. But a pet project.If there is an agenda, great. Figure out a way to pay for it. But when campaigners steadfastly refuse to pay even the slightest of fees, they only have themselves to blame for getting what, ironically, they so richly deserve. Here's a thought: have a lottery akin to the NHS lottery. So if cycling/environment/urban re-design is your thing, buy a ticket, fund your interest. Maybe even win a few bucks.But when the rates switch gets flicked back on, hopefully in Hounslow businesses will still be standing to pay into the system. If not, feel free to pedal past the abandoned shops on a crappy temporary cycle lane. You might have some chains left, but that's about it.Side note: when Hanif Khan took up his current role I met with him and Ruth Cadbury and suggested the decorative parklet units used on Hammersmith Grove be used to convert the existing bus lane into a cycle lane. It would have been temporary, adjustable, green, quick and in line with the CS9 strategy of removing the bus lane (a hot button, granted, but scheduled to happen so why not test it out). Perhaps thank them for what's about to come.

David Lesniak ● 2294d

"In an email to all the usual suspects yesterday, we told LBH effective immediately we will be putting out tables and chairs in line with current setback/clearance guidelines."Bravo!

Adrian Irving ● 2294d

Thank you, Adrian.Maybe you can kick something in to my Get-Out-of-Jail fund.Just in case.Still no word from Labour, accept Ruth's boilerplate response.

David Lesniak ● 2293d

No problem David.I can bake a good cake and have no shortage of hacksaw blades.

Adrian Irving ● 2293d

To be clear "hacksaw blades" are your words, not mine.However, this just in:https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/16/enactedStill regrettable Hounslow Labour Council led by Steve Curran put businesses throughout the borough three weeks behind as other boroughs demonstrated true leadership and put this into effect 3 July. And let it also be said, Ruth Cadbury did the same.No surprise additional tables and chairs are now hard to come by.

David Lesniak ● 2293d

Clause 1c is very encouraging and, if you are still having issues with disabled access, just point the petty bureaucrats at clause 7a.

N V Brooks ● 2293d

So do I.  Paul Green is one of the very few who consistently talks common sense on here.

Claire Moran ● 2293d

"Good to know that during times of economic crisis, the party that's all about jobs is focusing on transport. Not employment and stabilising the economy let alone laying groundwork for recovery. But a pet project."You can't seriously mean the Labour Party ? "All about jobs" my foot (or a slightly higher part of the anatomy). When they came to power nationally in 1997 the immediate impact on the charity I then worked for was to cut our funding and put 30-odd people out of work.

Richard Greenhough ● 2293d

I witnessed the devastating effects of Labour's job creation programme when, to pander the electorate in former mining towns they threw tens of millions of pounds in 'development loans' to largely overseas companies to create call-centre jobs. These mainly went to the wives and children of the miners and swiftly became the main employers in areas south of Sunderland and around Brighouse in Yorkshire.The development loans were only repayable if the busines taling them pulled out within, normally, three or five years.Surprise, surprise, almost to the day three or five years after opening with only a few exceptions the companies pulled out and moved on to another area where a gullible government, desparate for votes, was willing to throw cash at them.

N V Brooks ● 2293d

"Clause 1c is very encouraging and, if you are still having issues with disabled access, just point the petty bureaucrats at clause 7a."You've given just the subsection numbers.  Those two references are actually sections 2 (1) (c) and 3 (7) (a) respectively.

Richard Jennings ● 2293d

ClaireI second that about Paul Green

Loraine Pemberton ● 2293d

Me a culpa.Thank you Richard.

N V Brooks ● 2293d

So to be clear - the council which is closing roads to enable local businesses to spill out onto the pavements was charging over the odds for those same businesses to do so. This seems very strange unless there was some other reason for introducing access restrictions....

Anita Blake ● 2292d

Here is the news on this today maybe if people had been watching the Hub news and all the local finance bulletins they may have seen the whole picture but why do that when you can have a good bicker on a Sunday. https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/UKHOUNSLOW/bulletins/2972672

Caroline Carney ● 2292d

So common sense breaks out in all directions!"As a council we are committed to supporting business recovery as they bounce back from the lockdown disruption. A new Fast Track Pavement Licence has now been introduced which will cost £100 and be valid for 12 months, that can be used to put removable furniture on the road adjacent to business premises. Applications can be made for pubs, cafes, bars, restaurants or other drinking establishment, and premises for the sale of food for consumption on or off the premises."  The online application says it will take 7 days to approve. Either Hounslow has been persuaded of the virtue of this at the last minute by spirited representations, or they were planning to do it all along but for some reason have kept quiet about it until now.  Maybe they enjoyed watching people getting worked up about it on this thread!

Peter Evans ● 2291d

Slapped wrists all round folks for not  watching the Hub news and all the local finance bulletins!Anyway, believe what you want but I say well done to all those who kicked up  and got things changed.

Adrian Irving ● 2291d

Waiting for the government to pass the legislation this week. I agree with others they should have taken the risk that other Boroughs took and fast-tracked in advance especially in light of the measures on DR and TGT. Glad to see it is finally happening.

Paul Campbell ● 2291d

Caroline -Again, I'm not sure what your issue with me is, but do please continue to embrace it.As for the whole picture, it is far more detailed than a simple PR bulletin.Did you know other Labour councils enacted these guidelines on 3 July?Did you know the new law says absolutely nothing about "working days" while the LBH application link refers to "7 working days from the day AFTER the application is made (excluding public holidays)?" The law, as passed by Royal Assent states clearly " "an application for a pavement licence is made ON THE DAY it is sent to the local authority." Given the application process is done online, quite literally the clock starts ticking upon hitting SEND. If one were to apply on a Friday, you'd run the risk of losing out on three weekends of trade given the Hounslow specific of "working days" which is in direct contravention to the law as passed.Did you know other councils allow businesses to trade with new furniture in place while the application is being processed?Did you know under normal circumstances LBH charges £54/square meter while other councils charge £3 or nothing per square meter?So when people ask why Chiswick isn't like other places with loads of street life under normal circumstance as well as getting reports of late with businesses spreading out across adjacent premises, there is one reason - LBH gets in the way of that. They do not engage. They frustrate. They contradict. They over charge. And now, they are contravening a new law.I know you like to snipe about businesses not getting on with it. In that context, I know of an example of a business that put out benches for 5 years without incident only to be made to remove them during shutdown. At the very same time elsewhere in the city, boroughs were actively engaging with traders trying to maximize options and telling them not to worry about paying the £20 fee in that borough, that it was more important to get them up and running and they could pay the fee when they could. Read that again: £20.Did you know the local police told the venue mentioned above to ignore the council and just put the benches back out?Did you know the same local police told me people couldn't sit on our benches even though customers abided by the then 2-meter distancing?So while you gripe, businesses are fighting furiously in the background to make sense of the non sensical, contradictory LBH "policy."And do also consider this - without these businesses ultimately paying back into the system, the specialized care you require will be jeopardized. So in a way, how dare you not connect those dots. You actually depend on all of us surviving.And yet you support a Leader and a council that threatens that very possibility each and every step of the way.Brava for supporting that.

David Lesniak ● 2291d

There seem to be two possibilities here - the licensing team are jobsworths who just love to say no when they can or they are being directed to be obstructive by a leader of the council who is using his power to make a point.

Anita Blake ● 2291d

Weird then that the licensing committee are allowing The Northumberland Estate to hold over ten functions in Syon Park - end of July /beginning of August, approx. 400 people with attendant traffic expected at each one. This irrespective of the fact that at the same time local roads are being made 'access only' thus pushing even more traffic onto an already congested junction with Twickenham Rd. where all these vistors will have to enter and leave. The glorious Leader must like hobnobbing with the local aristocracy - he'd rather upset the peasants than his mate the Duke!

Vanessa Smith ● 2291d

To be fair to the officers they don't formulate policy they implement it. If councillors aren't giving them a lead then they are obliged to enforce the rules as they are.

Kevin Howard ● 2291d

"To be fair to the officers they don't formulate policy they implement it"To be fair, the Leader had the ability to implement the draft guidance like his Labour colleagues did in other boroughs on 3 July.Steve Curran did not.His Labour Cabinet did not.It was a deliberate choice.And now, as of last night, I have learned the application portal is not functional.A window asks only for your postcode. You complete that page and hit NEXT only to be alerted to an omission: your street address. Yet the original window has no slot for precisely that. And that happens several times during the process.Timing out. Erasing input. Payment confirmation on one window. Payment failure on the next. No address drop down array in the payment verification window (my second favorite).And my number one: no mention of the required COVID Risk assessment on the LBH checklist sent so you are prepared to apply. So as you come across that bit in the application process, and then you scurry around to find it, you time out and all input gets erased so you have to start anew. No mention of COVID documentation on a COVID specific application? Negligence? Ineptitude? How to choose?Some will likely call it teething pains. But we are already three weeks behind and now we must endure teething pains??? Oh hell, no.But I'm gonna guess, legally speaking, the time-stamped "payment confirmation" on LBH letterhead is good enough to get the 7 day clock ticking. Not the "working days" LBH devised, but the days referred to in the law itself. Otherwise we have LBH acting outside the law.

David Lesniak ● 2290d

Did you know the new law says absolutely nothing about "working days" while the LBH application link refers to "7 working days from the day AFTER the application is made (excluding public holidays)?" The law, as passed by Royal Assent states clearly " "an application for a pavement licence is made ON THE DAY it is sent to the local authority." Given the application process is done online, quite literally the clock starts ticking upon hitting SEND. If one were to apply on a Friday, you'd run the risk of losing out on three weekends of trade given the Hounslow specific of "working days" which is in direct contravention to the law as passed.An Application is made on the day they get it.  The license is not granted until after they have investigated and are sure A public safety B relevant insurance is up to date and C there are no objections from other businesses or TFL re bus stops and station entrances.. I know Hounslow are tough on this matter as evidenced by their stand on Sam Harrison's request for external tables which I disagreed with them on.  An application is not a license it is an application for a license.  They do working days as the staff who provide this service work 5 day weeks. I am not anti business as you suggest I am anti people shouting their mouth off about something that was in the pipeline.  How about if in future you get all the business's effected by this and have a meeting with te department and the cabinet member.  You could have done this via your local councilors and maybe all of the business's in Hounslow would be benefitting from that.  i don't know if you did this in any way as your initial post did not say anything about meeting the officers or the council.  I did not snipe Mr. Lesniak.  I am incapable of sniping owing to the fact I have no problem coming out and saying what I feel is necessary for the given situation.  Have you by the way encountered the psychological study of transference? Noam Chomsky has discussed it at length and I see it growing more and more as a phenomena on the internet.  I would be quite happy to say all the things I have said to your face.  i do not hide behind social media as anyone who knows me will tell you.  I cannot do it now because of the virus and the fact that I am on the NHS list and shielding but i would be happy to meet you and discuss this or anything else you would like to at some point in the future.  I care very much about this borough I have lived in it for all but 11 years of my life and I am 58 now. There is a very diverse and vibrant community across this borough and the business's are many and are an intrinsic part.  I have been involved in the voluntary sector here since 1986.  I was the chair of Hounslow Community Network for 5 consecutive years until ill health took over.  On your last point.  You know nothing of the care I require nor of how it is financed so best not to go there unless you understand social care in this country to the extent I do. Your business's payments to the local authority do not go anywhere near elderly or disabled care so as I said don't go there or you will start to sound like you think vulnerable people should not be cared for within our society.  As to your points on monitoring of benches.  It was the police who made the mistake of telling the business they should put their benches back.  All street furniture was removed because the government did not want an area outside where people could congregate and put others in danger. Hounslow council was required to follow guidelines set by the government. I have had quite a lot of business dealings with Hounslow council and I am a member of the Labour Party so I have met Cllr Curran a few times and he knows me on site as I do him. We are not friends we do not socialise and I do not support the council leadership on quite a few things.  I have however worked in local government and many years ago for the LB Hounslow and as an active trade unionist I saw how staff are treated by people with an axe to grind be they public or councilors it takes a heavy toll on everyone so if you want a good working relationship with council staff don't blame them for the governments or their bosses policies  they may actually agree with you and when they do they make those views known via committee and management. Council staff are like civil servants neutral and still there when the regime changes.

Caroline Carney ● 2290d

Caroline, as mentioned above, your posts would be much easier to read if you broke them up into paragraphs.

Richard Greenhough ● 2290d

Quite a lot of Chiswick is in LBE. I believe the eastern perimeter is the middle of The Avenue. I participated in a zoom call last week with LBE councillors. Unsurprisingly much of it focused on the height of the proposed Bollo Lane development. The transcript makes for interesting reading.

Claire Moran ● 2290d

Sorry Richard I did try but there is some gremlin in my laptop that hates writing on sites like this and it can make editing a nightmare.  I shall split as I type from now on and hope for the best

Caroline Carney ● 2290d

I am sure it does Claire i have always found highways and planning to be the most likely meetings to be either utterly confused or flabbergasted by

Caroline Carney ● 2290d

You could be right but I find you cannot make that opinion fact if you don't try to meet it head on.  I have seen people in the voluntary sector running local groups completely ready to burst over regulations they are supposed to follow or legislation with no common sense from governments.  You lose a lot of really good committed local people like that they just can't fight bureaucracy any more.

Caroline Carney ● 2290d

I don't find it weird Venessa. Ridiculous and dangerous but not weird.  Bloody minded and foolish by the organisers I would not be going but then I would not be invited.  I suppose Northumberland would say "it is my business and I am trying to get it going again as told to by the government.  I have a totally different take on advice from the government re COVID19 and if I was leader I would have told him no it's to dangerous to bring so many people into  area there are certainly likely to be people with the virus among 400 and then we have Cheltenham Hounslow style.

Caroline Carney ● 2290d

Sorry, meant to post this in the North Chiswick thread, will repost there.

Claire Moran ● 2290d

Caroline I hope you feel better now.Again, I'm flummoxed you miss key points.Hounslow is not abiding by the spirit nor the letter of the law as written and intended. Other councils clearly stipulate the application is live the day it is submitted, Hounslow says the day after. Other councils let you use the pavement the moment you submit your application whilst it makes its way through consultation. Hounslow simply does not. One tack is supportive of struggling businesses. The other clings to bureaucracy adding additional burden. And yet you gloss over the impact that will have on business recovery and recovery of the entire community be it economic or emotional. Wouldn't it have been nice to see new seating arrangements and creative solutions as we emerged from this nightmare? Wouldn't it have been grand to see businesses maximize potential in time for July 4th and then again for Eat Out to Help Out? But we couldn't and now we will be late but not by our own volition. Plenty of examples from around the city and around the world. Just none in Hounslow. Yet. Why wait for that? What's the reason? What's the motive?You may have noticed the 5-day work week is a thing of the past. Ask anyone working from home these days. Hospitality venues, the very target of this new policy, run 7 days a week. The internet runs 24 hours a day challenging retail businesses. And yet government plods along as if it were 1962. It's not rocket science why High Streets and malls suffer. The pace of government doesn't help. Internet tax to level the playing field, anyone???And yes, I shout my mouth off. Because you expect us to sit back, wait and enjoy it. Shame on you. No different than me saying wait for your care while your mate gets precisely what she needs when she needs it. You? You should keep quiet and wait. After all, Caroline, its in the pipeline.You're right, I don't know about your required care. But I do know when I'm being patronized. I also know enough of how this system works and I know when businesses aren't paying into it and businesses shut so customers aren't paying into it either, an enormous problem emerges. Where do you think the money for social programs comes from? The sky?And no, Caroline, all street furniture was not removed. In fact, police suggested it be used. An enforcement officer told us customers couldn't sit 2 meters apart on our benches but they were okay to walk 10 meters to sit 2 meters apart on the public benches that never once were roped off. All two of them. Which was ridiculous given the directive to get out and exercise. So we spent a week ripping out plants we paid for and spreading mulch that we paid for around the perimeter of the raised bed that we pay for in order to provide more surface area for more butts. How utterly dastardly of us, don't you think? And then I read a story of how Hammersmith provided loads of public tables and chairs in White City for everyone. Hounslow did nothing. Nothing.LBH took a nearly punitive stance as opposed to a conciliatory one. Until you have them storming in without ID threatening fines, you will never know. But I do as do several other businesses.So, again, a factual comparison can be made. Labour councils elsewhere engaged with businesses encouraging them to utiliize the pavement and get seats out PRIOR to the formal enactment of draft guidance and DURING any subsequent consultation. Hounslow sat on its hands. Do you not see how that imperils the delicate economic balance of pre-COVID as well as endangers the recovery of a shattered economy now?I also find it quite odd you failed to rant on the fact the application portal for the new license is not functional. As in, you can't use it so you can't apply and you can't progress.You seem to think I only have my own interest at heart. Not that of my staff. Not that of the community at large. Not that of my nearby colleagues and competitors. You also seem to think I haven't been in touch with local councillors. Or Steve Curran. Or the rest of the Labour Cabinet monopoly. Ask them. I annoy the crap out of them (but hopefully in a good way). Did you know I engaged with Guy Lambert procuring food for his initiative during this pandemic? In the back of my mind did I wonder if that gesture might translate into something? Indeed. Did it? No. Am I surprised? Sadly not.And do you really not think all of the businesses will benefit because I have the balls to speak up? How on earth to you get that math? I wonder if that's why they thank me...

David Lesniak ● 2290d