Forum Topic

Nick Mander · 07/12/2020 12:56:00

new.ChiswickW4.com Communtity Forum Topic posting

Turnham Green Terrace the Hounslow Council Magic Money Tree

The cameras are in operation. The signs are tiny and no drivers are looking for them anyway so completely unaware. While waiting for the light on CHR about to cross at TGT I counted 15 cars turning left illegally. Like lambs to the slaughter they have no idea that a letter will be in the post. Absolutely no real effort by the council to make the public aware things have changed. I live in the next street and I had to remember at the last minute when driving home so what chance does a non local resident have?

Nick Mander ● 2304d49 Comments

Is it up and running thenI forgot to look for any signs but half way down thought about it and see around 10 cars in a row coming down straight from CHR past TGT tube. Boy they must be raking it in. Pay rise for the top boffs in the new year 😎

Julian Pavey ● 2304d

I tried to warn a learner driver and instructor on Thursday that they couldn't turn right into TGT whilst waiting at the traffic lights, completely ignored me and turned anyway. Its a bloody nightmare and will only get worse when "normal" traffic resumes especially if they do the same with Fishers lane where everyone is now heading to avoid this.With only 2 ways "around" Chiswick remaining rush hour, especially when all the kids go back to school is going to be chaotic Just my 2 pence worth after living in Chiswick for over 20 years.

Chris Johnson ● 2304d

The signs are the standard size, and there's signage both before and at the junction. Most were likely just following the car ahead, in any case, rather than paying attention to the signage, especially if they're on their usual route.You're right, quite a few people are going to get a nasty surprise, but it's a mistake they'll only make once.

Tom Pike ● 2304d

Noticed this morning the 'No Left Turn' sign travelling west along Bath Road is on the lamp post bang after the bus stop outside the Tabbard. You get 2 94s tipping out at the bus stop, overtake, turn left into TGT and another one bites the dust into Hounslow's pocket. Very clever thinking on LBH's part. Come and have your picture taken Cllr Lambert by the bus stop!

Robert Joseph Manners ● 2304d

You having a laugh! Who's side you on?

Robert Joseph Manners ● 2304d

You're having a laugh if you think you think the borough can buy especially small signs to put up!I'm certainly pleased it's gone ahead. It's also a good example of cross-party action. A central government of one party set out policy in active transport and asked for proposals from local government, in this case of another party. Central government then selected the best for funding and the local government is now implementing these proposals. I wish we had more of this.

Tom Pike ● 2304d

Did I say the Council bought small signs? Go and see for yourself how close the lamp post with the no left turn sign on is to the bus stop on Bath Road

Robert Joseph Manners ● 2304d

The side of people perhaps for whom a £65 would be inconsequential?The problem with councils becoming increasingly reliant on fine based revenue is two fold. They are essentially a very regressive tax and they corrode trust between local authorities and residents.Some people in justifying these changes have tried to present people who use a car in Chiswick as Range Rover driving plutocrats but in London in particular there is an increasingly inverse relationship between how much you need to drive and your income. Since many professional and office bound jobs are now being done from home, the relatively small proportion of people who do this kind of work who need to drive has fallen even further. At the same time the restrictions on capacity on public transport has meant that those who can't work from home need to use their car more.The largest number of people who are going to be caught by these new restrictions are self-employed delivery drivers for whom a single fine would probably wipe out most of an entire days earnings.Meanwhile Range Rover driving plutocrats are, in many cases likely to appeal against fines with well-informed arguments about the questionable validity of the way these restrictions have been implemented. The council will say the legal justification for the fines is rock solid but they probably won't want that tested by the parking adjudicator. Fines hit the poorest hardest and are likely to be avoided by the well-off. Hounslow is probably doing the right thing in looking to raise revenues but they should consider the way they are doing this from a social justice point of view.

Mark Evans ● 2304d

Well said Mark. All I commented on is the 'No Left Turn' sign is too near the bus stop and no one will see the warning before turning left into TGT. The sign needs to be moved so it is visible when driving west along Bath Road.

Robert Joseph Manners ● 2304d

I should add that I'm not entirely sure if the parking adjudicator will be the body responsible for ruling on these fines but I think I am right in assuming there will be an independent appeal body. The kind of issue that you raise is something that could potentially result in the adjudicator allowing an appeal and once they do that then lots of people will use the same grounds. People who successfully appeal fines tend to be on higher incomes.

Mark Evans ● 2304d

If the signage or the method of enforcement was at fault, the borough would have to refund everybody - it's not case-by-case under those circumstances. That's why the signage is very unlikely to be deficient.Car ownership in London falls steeply with income, more than 80% for the highest income households and less than 20% for the lowest paid, so traffic fines certainly don't overall hit the poorest hardest. I do agree an income-dependent component would be reasonable, but given the disparity in car ownership it's difficult to argue this is a burning social injustice. In contrast nearly 50% of the poorest areas and only 2% of the wealthiest areas experience pollution above the legal limits, mostly from vehicles. That is a real social injustice that requires action.

Tom Pike ● 2304d

A fixed rate fine will always hit the poorest hardest.Car ownership figures are not the same as vehicle use. Higher paid professional jobs rarely require a car to be used. A significant amount of vehicles on our roads will be delivery vehicles, minicabs, commercial vehicles the drivers of which will all be paid considerably less than you. Less well paid jobs are far more likely to require a vehicle to be used and far less likely to be of the work from home variety. People on lower incomes tend not to be able to afford premium prices for areas with good public transport links and therefore have no choice but to drive to work.Take all these factors together and you have to accept that for a significant number of people who will be fined the cost will result in real hardship.Don't really understand your 'whatabout pollution' point in this context.

Mark Evans ● 2304d

"If the signage or the method of enforcement was at fault, the borough would have to refund everybody - it's not case-by-case under those circumstances. That's why the signage is very unlikely to be deficient." This isn't the case. The proponents of this scheme have already told us how innovative it is and it is likely that it is the first time ever that an Experimental Traffic Order has been used to implement a camera enforced access restriction of this kind. This certainly won't have been the government's intention when urging local authorities to use these kind of orders and isn't really what they are supposed to be for. As with any innovation in law, interpretation is going to be unclear as there will be no case law to refer to. What the council will be keen to do is avoid any challenge to the new arrangements which requires a ruling. If they have been dishing out fines since Thursday, the chances are that one of the people receiving an unwelcome arrival on their doormat will be a senior lawyer, this being Chiswick. He or she will take great pleasure in putting together arguments that Hounslow's probably less high powered legal department would have trouble rebutting in court. Therefore they will rescind the fine just to make the problem go away. Even if the lawyer put their argument in the public domain Hounslow aren't going to give everybody refunds and will continue fining people with only those able to marshall the legal details getting off.

Kevin Howard ● 2304d

Dam 🤦‍♂️ I did it today, drove past The Tabard & turned left onto TGT. call me crazy but as someone who lives here for so long that's not the correct signage! This is a major change to many local peoples routes. Guess just have to wait for the fine in the post 😔 sorry kids, no money for food this week 😔

Beverly Roberts ● 2304d

“it is likely that it is the first time ever that an Experimental Traffic Order has been used to implement a camera enforced access restriction of this kind. “Where did you get that from?Experimental traffic orders were introduced in 1984 so have been around for 36 years. The only difference between measures done using ETOs and Traffic Management Orders for permanent changes is the ETO measure must be capable of being removed if the trial doesn’t continue.ANPR cameras have often been used for bus gates, access restrictions and school streets.

Michael Robinson ● 2304d

The signage will be complaint, but I agree there may be interpretation under the ANPR enforcement which will be innovative. But the government is precisely looking for new approaches here. This is about change not business as usual. However, if the fines are found to be illegal because of an issue in the method of enforcement, the judge will most certainly order refunds and the Borough will have to stop issuing them.

Tom Pike ● 2304d

'Where did you get that from?' A friend at the Department for Transport. If you can provide examples of where ETOs have been used in this way before then I'd be happy to acknowledge that she and I are wrong.

Kevin Howard ● 2304d

The ANPR enforced ETO in Savernake Road Hampstead has been in place since the end of 2018.There is also an ANPR enforced ETO for a number of 'school streets' in Wandsworth. It's not a new thing at all.

N V Brooks ● 2304d

“ If you can provide examples of where ETOs have been used in this way before then I'd be happy to acknowledge that she and I are wrong.“If you want to find other examples all you need to do is google anpr experimental traffic order.Here is one from 2 years ago in Camden.https://www.camden.gov.uk/documents/20142/3826915/Experimental+Traffic+Order+2018.pdf

Michael Robinson ● 2304d

What's revealing is just how much we drive on 'automatic pilot' on roads we're familiar with. I imagine strangers to the area will read the signs and respond to them as intended, unless they're relying on a sluggish SatNav. I'm sure most of the drivers still using TGT are regulars who just haven't 'seen' the signs, with maybe a few bloody minded enough to give it a go in the full knowledge.

Peter Evans ● 2304d

The Savernake Road scheme is not ANPR enforced. The Burghley Road scheme no longer operates under an ETO this was superseded by a conventional traffic order: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3398845 The cameras which were specified in the original order don't seem to have ever been installed so it looks like the camera signs are there as a deterrent rather than an indication of active enforcement. This is a very different scheme to what is being proposed at Turnham Green Terrace. It is only in action for 2 hours a day, it is there presumably to reduce traffic at school pick up times, it is very clearly marked and is on a road which is only likely to be used for open access. What there doesn't appear to be is an example of an ETO being used for traffic restrictions that are subject to a high level of ANPR enforcement and therefore likely to be subject to a higher level of legal scrutiny.

Kevin Howard ● 2304d

Has the arrow on the road marking on CHR indicating you can turn left into TGT been removed?

Carol Burge ● 2304d

When I drove along there on Saturday evening it hadn’t. I was going straight ahead in the ‘correct’ lane but the cars in the turning lane then suddenly feeling they had to go straight ahead caused a bit of a problem as it then goes to one lane through the lights. No real joined up thinking!

Margot Crowther ● 2304d

Looks like it is the new Party policy - it's happening all over the country."Bow resident, Sheila Kelly, has spent the weekend researching bus gates. Here’s what she found.Forget pollution control, it’s all about the money.https://www.ourbow.com/liveable-streets-forget-pollution-control-its-all-about-the-money/

Alex Shpinkov ● 2304d

I could never figure out how traffic could also go straight on from that lane! And if I remember correctly coming from the other direction at that junction was/is there not a lane specifically to turn right into TGT....has that been changed? Maybe they should urgently remove the left arrow and put signage on the actual road to say NO LEFT TURN FOR CARS

Carol Burge ● 2304d

Maybe they should consider removing the left turn lane going eastbound and the right turn lane going westbound on CHR to create more space for walking and cycling. No need for dedicated lanes if there will only be a handul of vehicles and buses using them.

Paul Campbell ● 2304d

#Paul.....agree

Carol Burge ● 2304d

People on the highest incomes in London are more than four times more likely to own a car than the poorest paid and so the bulk of the fines for private car use in general will be paid by those most able to pay. In fact speeding fines above £100 are now income dependent to prevent unnecessary hardship. Looking at the traffic on the High Road and Bath Road (there's not a separate traffic count for TGT), while only 15% are delivery vehicles, 70% of the traffic are cars, and most of those would be making journeys less than 5 km long. As TGT is surrounded by areas in the top 20% of income in the UK, there is no doubt that a large majority of fines will go to those most able to pay. It's a little disingenuous to claim the system is stacked against the lower paid in this case.My point about the pollution from traffic is that in general lower income households do pay a disproportionately high price in terms of health and premature death due to cars rather than a disproportionately high penalty from traffic offences while driving them.

Tom Pike ● 2304d

“The Burghley Road scheme no longer operates under an ETO this was superseded by a conventional traffic order”Kevin,Experimental Traffic Orders are only in effect for a maximum of 18 months and then they are either removed or made permanent. The council has a statutory requirement to make a decision within 18 months. They can’t continue indefinitely. You posted the link for a experimental scheme being made permanent. If you want an example of a high profile ETO implemented using ANPR then just look up Bank junction in the City of London. You will see reference to all the taxi driver protests. They are as litigious as you will get. The scheme was implemented in 2017 and has since been made permanent.If you want other examples of ETOs and ANPR, as I said, just google “anpr experimental traffic order”. There are lots of examples.

Michael Robinson ● 2303d

I have to accept you are right on this — there does appear to be a previous example of an ETO being used as the basis for the issue of a large number of fines previously at the Bank junction in the City of London. The circumstances are somewhat different to TGT in that the ETO was issued following a fatality and there isn't much in common with the layout but it does mean that the council can point to a precedent. Whether that means it won't be vulnerable to challenges or is an intended use of the government's funding is another matter.

Kevin Howard ● 2303d

The government approved the scheme and allocated the funding for it. It turned down lots of other schemes and did not provide for those because they did not meet the standards described in the guidance.

Paul Campbell ● 2303d

Sometimes you don't know whether to laugh or cry. Absolutely farcically.

Nick Jenkins ● 2303d

I thought it was a Govt initiative to reduce unnecessary car use and increase space for walking and cycling especially right now that we have to maintain social distancing. It gives more room on TGT where the pavements already get very congested without social distancing.Don't drive where you shouldn't just because you can! Having said are there warning that road rules/layout etc has changed? There are so many of those roads anyway in towns and cities where several lanes merge that we should be used to them.I just wish there was more enforcement for other anti-social traffic infringements - speeding/cycling where you shouldn't/e-scooting where you shouldn't etc.Some people obviously seem to struggle more than others to adapt to any changes. Keep the discussion going!

Philippa Bond ● 2303d

oh well that will be 2 fines to pay as i turned left into TGT over the weekend. i have just cycled down to take a look at the signage and it is an absolute joke and noticed at least 5 cars turning left in a space of 3 mins while taking photos in preparation for my appeal which will no doubt come back as tough luck just pay up you mug!! I did notice the no entry sign but once you have already committed to drive into TGT. I recall on Saturday morning being behind a lorry as i turned into TGT and no way i would have seen the sign. i guess like most on here we will only learn about these changes after paying our fines which is unfair. Perhaps our Cllr would like to raise this with the head of Transport at the next council meeting if not too much to ask.

James Smith-Jones ● 2303d

As you suggest, the 'No Motor Vehicle' signs at the north end of TGT are quite a way down the road and not properly visible until you're well round the corner. Also, as others have suggested, the advance 'No Left Turn' sign in Bath Road is easily obscured by buses. They need to make all this a lot more obvious so regular drivers notice that things have changed. For a start they could easily remove the mini-roundabout, as there's no need for it as 'all traffic' should now be turning right out of Bath Road. Then draw some new white lines and a few big arrows on the road showing the way to go, and reposition the 'No Motor Vehicle' signs further forward. Similarly at the southern end, the existing arrows on the road that suggest you can turn into TGT from CHR need to be replaced with some big 'straight on' arrows across the end of the junction. None of these changes would cost much and they're sufficiently cosmetic for things to be easily put back as they were when the 'experiment' is over. To add a few small signs to the existing road layout here does seem somewhat inadequate, and only lends credence to the idea that this is a money making scheme rather than an honest attempt to improve conditions for pedestrians in TGT during the present crisis.

Peter Evans ● 2303d

Philippa, it doesn't give more room on TGT for walking, as there are still lots of vehicles legally using the road including buses, taxes and delivery vans. So if you walk in the road expect to have an accident. The large concrete planters dont help, and the parking spaces were blocked off without needing to close the road to through traffic.I have yet to encounter the crowded pavements on TGT that necessitate walking in the road, nor seen anyone use the blocked off parking bays to do so.

Paul Green ● 2303d

The pavements on TGT are barely two metres wide so you have to step into the road to maintain a safe passing distance. I always walk in the coned off parking bays to avoid others on the pavement.

Peter Evans ● 2303d

Fair enough Peter, I dont myself find that necessary and I haven't seen anyone else do that. The new traffic restrictions don't allow you to step into the other areas of the road, unless you want to risk a nasty incident.

Paul Green ● 2303d

I also think the signs for vehicles turning left from bath road are inadequate. A few days ago I didn’t see the no left turn before TGT even though I was specifically looking for the signs, there was a bus at the stop so maybe that’s why. I did see those on TGT just after the roundabout. But there’s a lot going as one turns, the zebra, the roundabout then pedestrians crossing at the northern tip of TGT, so these signs would also be easily missed. Two other points: as of yesterday google maps still told me to go down TGT if I want to go to capital motors, why don’t councils inform these navigation apps of such changes?; Also the pay by phone app was apparently still allowing people to pay money for parking on TGT after parking was no longer allowed. Why?

David Turner ● 2303d

I would presume that if there is ANPR enforcement, there may still also have to be evidence that at least one of the prohibition signs passed by the offending vehicle was visible and not obscured at the time it was passed.I successfully contested a PCN for contravening a no U-Turn restriction, as the signage on my side of the road was cluttered, and additionally obscured by foliage, and the very clear signage on the opposite side of the road was obscured by a truck that happened to be passing in the opposite direction (which was all very clear from the CCTV footage that the council had taken).

Andrew Jones ● 2303d

James, if you were that close to the lorry you may well not have been able to see the sign or signs. People may say you were driving too close to the lorry (I have no idea whether you were or weren't) but any PCN issued would be for going past the vehicle prohibition sign, and not for how close you were driving to the vehicle in front, so if you get a PCN, do ask the council to prove that the sign was visible to you at the time you went into TGT.I really wish that councils would allow a settling in period where they just issue warning letters (or at the very minimum limit PCNs to just one in the first 2 weeks where there have been changes in road restrictions).

Andrew Jones ● 2303d

James, No need to wait for a council meeting. I have now raised it - and other points made in this discussion thread. I don't want anyone to be fined because signs are misleading or inadequate. Jo

Joanna Biddolph ● 2303d

Jo,I think the reply will be that the signs are adequate and not misleading. What would have been helpful was notice in advance of the upcoming changes to TGT and DR, and also some attempt when the scheme came into operation to educate drivers that things had changed, maybe by handing out leaflets and having an amnesty for the first week.There was plenty of advance notice of the closure of the Stile Hall Road access to the A406, some drivers didn't spot or take notice of the signs, but I'm sure most who used to go that way must have. I presume the signs warning about Stile Hall Gardens were put up by Hounslow?

Andrew Jones ● 2303d

Finally large yellow signs have been put up saying that Turnham Green Terrace is closed to through traffic or something in that vein. (I was driving so do not have full wording). The sign I saw in the early evening was at the north end of the terrace by the Mini Roundabout.

Elizabeth Jane Daley ● 2303d

If it's the yellow sign I'm thinking of, it's been there for a few days. You should see it if you're driving along Bath Road, but if you are joining the Bath Road from one of the side streets close to TGT you wouldn't see it. I'll have a look later today to see if another one has appeared.

Andrew Jones ● 2303d

Paul Have you been in TGT at the rush hour when people coming in to the station by tube flock off the train and flow out onto the street like a tidal wave? When people running down the stairs use both sides of the stairs and you have to flatten yourself against the wall at the bottom not to get knocked over and pushed in the wrong direction and have to wait until it is clear to climb the steps up to the platform?Maybe the numbers senselessly and unnecessarily commuting backwards and forwards to work will stay reduced - which will be a good thing - as long as they still have jobs!

Philippa Bond ● 2302d

yes I have, quite a few times. But passenger volumes are well down and that is not the case now. Not sure then what relevance that has to this discussion and the recent closure of TGT. As things normalise, as at some point they will, so tube passengers will pick up. But this will be when its generally safe to do so. Traffic will pick up, ahead of public transport volumes. With the closure of Fishers Lane, the only remaining route to cross the tube lines on Acton Lane will be even busier. This will bring delays, pollution and impact many people, catching several bus routes too.

Paul Green ● 2302d

Thank you Joanna for raising this with the Council but can’t help thinking your concerns will fall on deaf ears.What would be in testing Is if other similar road changes in other parts of the borough will also be policed by cameras and will fines be the same across the borough. I would wager Chiswick cash cow rule applies! Oh Mrs S-J has just informed me that she turned left on TGT on Friday to pick her mother from Paddington and also on her return so I reckon our household is up to potentially 5 tickets

James Smith-Jones ● 2302d