Forum Topic

Let there be a new golden age for cycling

The PM (link below) states in parliament 'let there be a new golden age for cycling' when discussing increasing transport services during the COVID recovery.This is a good move, if an increase in cycling can help with both social distancing as well as easing pressure on public transport then surely this can only be a good thing. https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/4d271dc1-e5e8-4b6b-88f3-e2c4fdf0597d?in=12:17:51

Matthew Swain ● 2373d68 Comments

"if an increase in cycling can help with both social distancing"Unfortunately it won't. As shown in Richmond Park.

Steve Taylor ● 2373d

Richmond park is a concentrated area and I guess you could argue far more recreational. I  believe the PM is referring to cycling as a replacement for pubic transport for those who are able to I order to help social distancing.

Matthew Swain ● 2373d

As long as it's not on the footpath.

Keith Iddon ● 2373d

As long as it's not on the footpath.As long as it's not on a footpath that is not shared use.

Matthew Swain ● 2373d

The PM thinks it. Robert Jenrick thinks it. The Mayor thinks it. Tfl think it. The Cabinets of Ealing and Hounslow Councils think it. And plenty of other Councils too. Heck maybe the Chiswick Councillors will think it when the see their leader taking this stance.Quick installation of a network of cheap cycle infrastructure throughout London is essential to recovery from both the health and the economic crises.

Paul Campbell ● 2373d

How will the much narrower pavements help with social distancing?

Claire Moran ● 2373d

Here we go again! Cue CS9

John Connelly ● 2373d

Where there is insufficient space for social distancing on pavements they whould be widened and if that means that the new cycle lanes that are adjacent to them should take more of the road space then so be it. I am finding it much easier to social distance on a bike than on Chiswick's pavements at the moment. Especially on TGT and Devonshire Road.

Paul Campbell ● 2373d

Take the space from the road.

Ken Munn ● 2373d

Matthew, many cyclists don't care whether it's shared or not.So, as I said, as long as it's not on the footpath.

Keith Iddon ● 2373d

"I  believe the PM is referring to cycling as a replacement for pubic transport for those who are able to"I'm all for it then.

Steve Taylor ● 2373d

Shared use footpath is a joke. Unfortunately from my experience on the A316 and the footpath to Barnes Bridge from Chiswick, the large majority of cyclists think they have a priority over pedestrians. I've lost count of the number of times I've been verbally abused by cyclists because I haven't got out of their way fast enough or at all.What good is shouting or ringing a bell when the pedestrian is deaf?If there must be shared use, then it should be where there is ample space, not like the A316. Rant over.

Bob Guyett ● 2373d

"Take the space from the road."Precisely. With reduced public transport, the Bus Lanes could be renamed Cycle Lanes and buses can share the rest of the road with cars. Public transport is rife with germs anyway. It's disgusting!

Steve Taylor ● 2373d

KM's reply is symptomatic of the blinkered approach that some, not all, cyclists adopt.By all means cycle if that is your wish and you are physically capable but remember not all can and sufficient facilities must also be provided for those that don't want to/can't.Oh! and by the way, most cyclists have been educated in the Highway Code regulations and Road Traffic Acts. They have no right to ignore the provisions so please observe the rules.

Jeffrey Cope ● 2373d

With reference to Richmond Park, which was mentioned earlier by Steve and Matthew, I went up there yesterday for a walk for the first time since the lockdown. It is now completely pedestrianized, with prominent notices on the gates and inside saying 'No Cycling' in large, clear letters. Guess who takes no notice whatsoever of them.

Colin Jordan ● 2373d

Brave or naïve to post this on here Matthew. I applaud your chutzpah and while most of us see this as a great opportunity for a reset on 100 years of traffic coated cities. You really are not going to find many takers in the over privileged, over aged, myopic's in Chiswick, who frequent these boards.An old person and change is like a dog that talks. Very rare.

Tony Mansell ● 2373d

"Guess who takes no notice whatsoever of them."Steve Taylor ?

Richard Greenhough ● 2373d

Richmond Park is still open for cyclists in two specific cases:  people who work in the park and NHS workers using the Park as a direct route to and from work (I believe that they have to show a pass).  So if cyclists have been spotted in the Park it is likely that they are not flouting the rules but are making use of these exemptions.  There are large men in high-vis jackets at the gates ensuring that cyclists in general don't enter

Andrzej Kowalski ● 2373d

What a completely pathetic generalisation about older people.

Helen Whitman ● 2373d

Agree Ken. There is still time to replan CS9 and replace one lane of traffic each side of CHR with cycle lanes.

Carl Wynne ● 2373d

From a TfL press release today:"The Cycleway 9 scheme between Kensington Olympia and Brentford, and the Cycleway 4 scheme between Tower Hill and Greenwich will be accelerated with temporary measures so that Londoners can benefit from them more quickly. Meanwhile on-street parking and lanes for cars and general traffic will be repurposed to give people on foot and on bikes more space".We shall soon see what they do Carl. Doens't sound like there will be a long planning period whatever it is.

Paul Campbell ● 2373d

"Quick installation of a network of cheap cycle infrastructure throughout London is essential"How funny, Paul. When I suggested the very same thing ages ago you opted to pillory me. I even suggested it be combined with providing additional public amenity green space. Silly, stupid me.But thanks for the jibe about us not being worthy of business aid. Perhaps you should learn a bit about how to control blood sugars. Because by your logic, those selling alcohol and fruit (not to mention processed food) should also be disavowed of public assistance. I do so appreciate your demonstrating to your kids what it's like to be a nasty f*ck during a global pandemic though. With luck, the apples will fall far away from the tree.Be well.

David Lesniak ● 2373d

It is true that it can be harder to change your routines and habits as you age.  It's not impossible though.

Philippa Bond ● 2373d

Can we please borrow your cones Uncle David?  We are going to need a lot of them.

Paul Campbell ● 2373d

I do so appreciate your demonstrating to your kids what it's like to be a nasty f*ck during a global pandemic though. What this really necessary this morning? The thread was about using cycling as social distancing.you have once again turned yet another thread into an attack, involved peoples kids and made it all about you.Less Trump,  more Obama behaviour David.

Matthew Swain ● 2373d

"An old person and change is like a dog that talks. Very rare."How ageist !One day you'll be old, and using your above argument you'll be part of the group you've just insulted.

Loraine Pemberton ● 2373d

Yes Tony. Next you will be accusing them of crashing through a traffic light when its on a red man when out walking.

Tony Smart ● 2373d

Cyclists unfortunately the ones who ignore social distancing most. When they cycle together - in groups - they cycle close to each other. When passing others - pedestrians and fellow cyclists - 9 out of 10 they pass closer than 2m. In fact yesterday as I was cycling another cyclist passed me so close that it was really unsafe - had it been a car passing a fanatic cyclist - the cyclist would've been really upset and complaining to the whole world.When making a stop for whatever reason - get some rest, or take some selfies in front of the Griffin Park - they usually stay well within 2m distance from each other.

Alex Shpinkov ● 2373d

No that would be pedestrians.

Tony Smart ● 2373d

I must say, Mr. Smart, that your cloddish remarks rather give the lie to the theory of nominative determinism.

Colin Jordan ● 2373d

"When making a stop for whatever reason - get some rest, or take some selfies in front of the Griffin Park - they usually stay well within 2m distance from each other."Of course they do because they are very selfish or just plain old thickos.

Steve Taylor ● 2372d

"I must say, Mr. Smart, that your cloddish remarks rather give the lie to the theory of nominative determinism."And of course the fool speaks only of himself when speaking of selfish pedestrians.

Steve Taylor ● 2372d

You really believe that a cyclist ignores social distancing more than we all do when we are walking? Have you left the house in the last month? Do you know how big 2m is?Every single person selfish or otherwise on Turnham Green Terrace is failing. What a daft comment by Alex.

Tony Smart ● 2372d

"you really believe that a cyclist ignores social distancing more than we all do when we are walking?"Yes. Percentage wise. 9 out of 10 cycle on the road past me when I walk on the pavement without even moving over to allow for 2 meter distance. 9 out of 10 pedestrians do make an effort to create the 2 meters either by waiting or by moving over.

Alex Shpinkov ● 2372d

Unfortunately I think that the idea that we are about to enter a golden age of cycling is not true. That it was the Prime Minister saying it should have been a red flag.What needs to be considered first of all is how public transport is going to operate in the future. Obviously we can't adopt ASLEF's call for ten passengers per tube carriage but our buses tubes and trains are going to need to be able to offer some measure of social distancing. There is no way that you can do this without a massive reduction in capacity.How you achieve this is difficult to say but it will have to be done by either pricing or rationing i.e. either raise fares to the point where there are so few people on it that social distancing is an issue or only give travel passes to people who meet a certain set of criteria.This will mean that millions of people won't be able to afford or won't be allowed to use public transport and will have to look at other options.The most sustainable alternative is for them to not to travel to work at all and this should be priority for government. They urgently have to introduce tax incentives so that people wishing to set up a home office or garden office can do so without having to pay for it out of income that has already been taxed. Ongoing home office expenses for PAYE workers should also be tax deductible.However, most jobs are not suitable for home office working and so a significant amount of people will still need to commute almost definitely more than the capacity of public transport.As many as possible should be encouraged to cycle but for the vast majority of commutes this is likely to be impractical and for those who could do, a significant proportion simply won't.This means that inevitably there will be a massive increase in the proportion of people using a car to get to work. The current quiet roads will not last and as soon as lockdown starts to ease we may find that traffic is worse than it ever was before.In this new environment, it simply won't be a policy option any more to give road space to cycling if there is a possibility it will restrict traffic flows. Even if there were money for significant cycling infrastructure projects, which there quite clearly won't be, what can be done will be severely limited by the greater policy priority to keep traffic including buses moving as freely as possible.If there is a golden age for cycling it is right now but sadly I don't think it will last for very long. Make the most of it (subject to government guidelines).

Paul Corcoran ● 2372d

Change your deodorant?

Tony Smart ● 2372d

Thanks for confirming how smart you are.

Alex Shpinkov ● 2372d

Haven't you seen the press release and commentary from yesterday Paul? You are way off the mark.

Paul Campbell ● 2372d

"Of course they do because they are very selfish or just plain old thickos."STAY AT HOMEPROTECT THE NHSSAVE LIVESSTAY OFF SOCIAL MEDIASTOP INSULTING YOUR FELLOW CITIZENSOnly a real thicko could fail to follow the simple instructions listed above.

Richard Greenhough ● 2372d

You clearly haven't seen yesterday's press release Paul.https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/mayors-bold-plan-will-overhaul-capitals-streetsThe relevant sections for Chiswick are:"The Cycleway 9 scheme between Kensington Olympia and Brentford, and the Cycleway 4 scheme between Tower Hill and Greenwich will be accelerated with temporary measures so the Londoners can benefit from them more quickly."So expect to see sections of road being coned off, or other low cost methods of reallocating road space such as "wands" or other sorts of barrier."A low-traffic neighbourhood will be created in Hounslow along the future Cycleway 9 route by closing local roads to through traffic and further locations across London will follow, "This is the long overdue closure of Wellesley Rd and Stile Hall Gardens to westbound traffic at the junctions with the S Circular. Your view of the future appears to be contradicted by these plans.Indeed, now is the ideal time to take action on residential streets afflicted by traffic.  These actions don't need anything more costly than signage, bollards, or planters.

Michael Robinson ● 2372d

AS: "When passing others - pedestrians and fellow cyclists - 9 out of 10 they pass closer than 2m. In fact yesterday as I was cycling another cyclist passed me so close that it was really unsafe"It may be very inconsiderate, but it was hardly "really unsafe".If I may reproduce something I posted on another thread ("Green Shoots"), maybe it will put your mind at rest?RC: "I was listening to Health Check on BBC Radio the other day and a virologist pointed out that it's exceptionally unlikely you'll catch the virus off someone if you're out and about on the streets.The real risk is if you're in close contact for a minute or more (chatting etc), or if someone coughs on you (v.unlucky), or if you're in a confined space (esp).But the risk is neglible if passing someone for a second or two in the open air, even if only a foot or two away.Remember, too, that the inconsiderate jogger [or cyclist] who won't move over would also have to have the virus to pass it on and most people do not."Hope this helps.

Richard Cathcart ● 2372d

Thanks for your response Richard.As for the time of required to transmit the virus - it is debatable, as there are different factors involved. One of the - the breathing rate which is obviously often higher for cyclists (and runners, too). And if it is this safe and simple - why are we so concerned about it when walking? Or shopping? Perhaps we shouldn't and it should be clearly announced in the government guidelines?However, my comment that "cyclist passed me so close that it was really unsafe" actually related to physical safety. The guy cut in in front of my so sharply and closely that it could cause a collision.

Alex Shpinkov ● 2372d

"Can we please borrow your cones Uncle David?  We are going to need a lot of them"Why not get Sadiq Khan to pay for new ones seeing as he clearly isn't spending money on much needed PPE for his TfL staff. Although he does spend copiously on his vanity projects and PR staff instead. I wonder if he mentions that at any TfL eulogy.

David Lesniak ● 2372d

Less Trump,  more Obama behaviour David.How interesting, Matt.Fine for Paul to attack but how awful of me to comment in the same vein. I always forget the double-standard bit.

David Lesniak ● 2372d

The closure of the Wellesley Road and Stile Hall Gardens cut throughs is probably long overdue and the need to do so is all the greater if traffic is set to increase. Not sure what exactly this has to do with Cycleway 9 other than geographical proximity. It seems like the Mayor is trying to claim credit for something that Hounslow Council initiated.Not sure how a press release from the Mayor which is full of flim flam and lacking in any proper detail contradicts the logic of what Paul Corcoran is saying. Where he may be wrong is that once the outbreak is over it will be realised that the economic consequences of enforcing social distancing on public transport will be too high to bear and we'll quickly be back to packed tubes and standing room only on buses.Traffic probably will pick up because some will be worried about health risk on public transport but as far as I can see use of public transport (other than driving a bus) has not resulted in a higher risk of death.

Dan Evans ● 2372d

I don't recall Paul using foul language or roping peoples kids into it, hence my message.No back to the topic of Cycling golden age.

Matthew Swain ● 2372d

"Not sure what exactly this has to do with Cycleway 9 other than geographical proximity. "Cycleway 9 along Wellesley Rd isn't viable without closing it.  There isn't even room for the volume of motor traffic let alone bikes hence all the cars parked on the pavement.  If Wellesley is closed, then SHG needs to be closed as well.It is up for debate if Hounslow would have initiated work to close Wellesley and Stile Hall if Wellesley hadn't been on the C9 route. Importantly for Hounslow, it meant that TfL paid for the project.  The planned C9 route was changed in 2015 from CHR to Chiswick roundabout to use Wellesley. Then in 2016 there was a resident survey, traffic survey and initial consultation, all paid for by TfL as part of the C9 project.Closure of Wellesley Rd and Stile Hall Gardens was also part of the two C9 consultations in 2017 and 2019.  Paul Corcoran's correctly assumes that reduction in public transport use will lead to increased private car use but his logic falls down with the assumption that TfL and the council must therefore provide space for this traffic.  This isn't what will happen.  There can never be enough space provided for private motor traffic in London as it will always consume whatever is available. As the announcement says, there will be re-allocation of road space away from motor traffic precisely to discourage and limit growth.

Michael Robinson ● 2372d

Before the stay at home stasi jump on my back I perhaps should clarify what I meant by the last point. Obviously if you travel on public transport you risk spreading the disease but, maybe surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be much evidence so far of passengers having a much higher fatality rate.

Dan Evans ● 2372d

"There can never be enough space provided for private motor traffic in London as it will always consume whatever is available."This is precisely the popular modern urbanistic approach. Modern politicians and traffic engineers failed miserably in trying to manage traffic and admitting defeat they came up with this concept: let's get rid of cars! How? Lets reduce the number of roads they can use! And let's make the remaining ones as unpleasant to use as possible! Surely then people will have to give up driving!

Alex Shpinkov ● 2372d

... just to add to my previous point, TfL have also provided funding to Hounslow to mitigate any issues as a result of Wellesley and Stile Hall being closed.So if Wellesley to Oxford Rd North, for example, becomes the rat-run route, then we can expect a follow-up project to address traffic on the rest of Wellesley Rd.Possible measures could be banning right turns (except buses) at Oxford Rd North and measures at Burlington and Marlborough if they are used as short-cuts for through traffic.

Michael Robinson ● 2372d

Let's hope that road pricing is introduced soon so there is a more sophisticated way of managing traffic.If there was an equivalent of "Oystercard for motor vehicles" so every vehicle journey in London could be charged based upon time, route and type of vehicle, that would be a good way of regulating traffic.It would also provide TfL with revenue to offset decline in public transport revenue, so another incentive for them to do it quickly.

Michael Robinson ● 2372d

Uncle David is fun. He asks me this question which is asserting that I support cycle infrastructure for London to protect myself at the expense of the lives of bus drivers:"given Tfl and the mayor have accepted their budgetary predicament and severely reduced revenue stream, would you rather see available funds go toward protecting TfL staff with proper PPE or do you think it wiser to protect yourself?"I think that he is creating an absurd strawman moral dilemma so I point that out with the equally absurd:"How about this for your moral maze: should we be giving financial aid to people who are helping to fuel the Type 2 diabetes epidemic in this country or buy PPE for bus drivers? Maybe the world is more complex than your polarised view of it."And clearly hit the limitations of his understanding of debate and rhetoric forcing him to lose his cool, use foul language on a public forum and, yet again bring up my kids. Obviously it is at this point when I graciously accept that I have outwitted him again (he bows and accept the rapturous applause).I am prepared to overlook his strange obsession with my kids just for the amusement value of childless men like him and Aubrey thinking that being a Dad means you have to strive for sainthood and cannot, by any means, poke fun at them or their friends when they say and do silly things. His Dad must have been a paragon of virtue to have set such an enduring example of idealised fatherhood in his consciousness.

Paul Campbell ● 2372d

In an arena replete with false equivalences, Alex takes the prize with this, his umpteenth attempt to equate the physical danger to a cyclist of another cyclist overtaking closely with a car overtaking closely. It is my favourite of them all.

Paul Campbell ● 2372d

These are all sensible things to consider but they aren't part of a strategy to reduce car journeys in the capital - the aim is to direct these journeys away from residential areas. It is self-evident that you can't reduce car journeys significantly by making them more difficult by taking away road space if people don't have a viable alternative which, if public transport is restricted, for most there won't be one.

Dan Evans ● 2372d

Get a bike Dan. It is the way forward.

Paul Campbell ● 2372d

In your dreams. Car owners already pay for using their cars. They pay Vehicle Tax. Plus they pay congestion charge to go to Central London.

Alex Shpinkov ● 2372d

It may well be your favourite but in a collision like that the consequences for me would've been the same as if I hit a car after it had cut in in front of me. But of course some cyclists don't even think that their cycling or cycling of their mates can be dangerous. By the way I've just come back from my ride and I've seen an elderly person almost hit by a couple cyclists on a shared pathway - the reason being the cyclists were riding too fast and were trying to keep momentum to the very end. And of course no social distancing either. But why would they care?So Paul you seem to be one of the main contenders for the inconsiderate cyclist of the month prize.

Alex Shpinkov ● 2372d

That's a typical 'cyclists' comment. Not very considerate is it?

Alex Shpinkov ● 2372d

In addition to making the street more pleasant, directing car journeys away from residential areas usually means it is more inconvenient for residents to make some car journeys as well.  The filtering to prevent through traffic usually means a detour for some resident journeys.  Combination of less traffic plus more inconvenient car journeys means an increase in walking in cycling.  That is what has been seen in Waltham Forest, for example.A third of car journeys in London are under 2km, a third between 2km and 5km and a third over 5km.If there are people who don't have an alternative then surely the people who *do* have an alternative should be discouraged from driving?

Michael Robinson ● 2372d

"Car owners already pay for using their cars. They pay Vehicle Tax."I just looked up what the vehicle tax is for a 80 thousand quid Telsa. Apparently it is £0.Car owners don't pay enough, particularly for parking. Compare what people are charging to rent out off-street parking and what a CPZ permit is. The council should really be charging market prices for storage of private property on public land.

Michael Robinson ● 2372d

"If there are people who don't have an alternative then surely the people who *do* have an alternative should be discouraged from driving?"That's a very inconsiderate argument. As a minimum because by discouraging people you make life miserable for both those who *do* have an alternative, and those who don't. People must be treated as adults and should be allowed to make their choice themselves without punishing them for the choice some don't like. By the way - if you start treating people like kids - they start behaving like kids. And that does not make our roads safer.

Alex Shpinkov ● 2372d

Also a pretty brainless one. I own a bike which is my primary form of transport at the moment and I am not arguing against the value of encouraging cycling just trying to be realistic about the extent that it can help solve what are pretty intractable problems.

Dan Evans ● 2372d

Hilarious. You are a great laugh Alex. I hope you and the elderly person get better at the nearly hospital.

Paul Campbell ● 2372d

That's great to hear Dan. I am glad that you are in the healthy club and enjoying the social distancing advantages of cycling at this time. Soon many more people will be able to share in your good fortune as a healthy and non-polluting form of transport is made safe and accessible for 8-80 year olds. It won't move everybody but it will certainly help move a lot more than not having safe lanes for all.

Paul Campbell ● 2372d

That's just waffle.The point about stopping traffic driving through residential streets comes down to priorities. What is more important? Some people having some additional time for some car journeys? Or a quieter and safer and healthier street for everyone on the street, all the time.Fortunately, London is shifting away from the convenience of car journeys being the most important thing in the world.

Michael Robinson ● 2372d

'So Paul you seem to be one of the main contenders for the inconsiderate cyclist of the month prize.'Yeah Paul,  bet that put you in your place.Christ what a complete bore.

Matthew Swain ● 2372d

PC has once again adopted the old diversionary practice of mentioning cars as an excuse for the selfish/dangerous tactics of some cyclists.Waiting for your mention again of car drivers Paul.

Jeffrey Cope ● 2372d

Hey JC nice of you to drop in to celebrate our dear PM’s vision with us. I am sure you will agree how serendipitous it is that it chimes with his successor’s plans for London. You are too kind to give me the credit for Alex’s comparison. Got to go and discuss dangerous tactics with some cyclists. Bon grand weekend.

Paul Campbell ● 2372d